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Minors over 2NT Do you have good agreements

#1 User is offline   rhm 

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Posted 2012-April-20, 04:04

Yesterday in a weak field with a weak partner the following pair of hands came up:



South opens proceedings with 2NT

Playing teams (short matches) we ended up in 6, but with a sequence too embarrassing to show.
Assuming a standard framework where over 2NT you play some sort of Stayman and Transfers what set of agreements do you use for minor suit oriented hands like North?

I am interested in the following questions:

How do you differentiate single suiters in the minors from minor two suiters?

Can you suggest a sensible sequence to get to 7?

Where (important at matchpoints) and how do you stop when North majors would have been reversed?

(I am aware that this type of problem is easier for strong clubbers)

Rainer Herrmann
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#2 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2012-April-20, 04:31

With Shogi, responder bids 4 but I am not sure if we ever discussed the follow-ups :)
When did pass become a 4-letter word? --- WinstonM
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#3 User is offline   manudude03 

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Posted 2012-April-20, 04:57

For me (not playing with Helene) an optimistic sequence would be:

2NT*-3S (20-22, minor suit stayman)
4D-4S (4+D&3-C, cue)
5C-5S (cue, cue)
5NT-6C (josephine, 1 of top 3)
7D (gambling on partner having the K, very likely given the known void, partner would be bidding differently with AK)

*we play 2NT as weak with both minors so it would really start 2D(multi)-2H-2NT.
Wayne Somerville
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#4 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2012-April-20, 06:07

Assuming that it is agreed not to open 2NT with 5-4 in the majors,

2NT - 3 = clubs or both minors with slam interest
3NT = 2 clubs
... - 4 = both minors with spade void
5 = accept slam try, 0 or 3 key cards
... - 5 = Q?
5NT = yes, and K
... - 7

seems to work well enough. With a diamond one-suiter the response would be 4 over 2NT; a club one-suiter one can rebid 4 over partner's 3NT.

With the majors reversed

2NT - 3 = clubs or both minors with slam interest
3NT = 2 clubs
... - 4 = both minors with heart void
4 = decline slam try
... - 5

No stopping in 3/4NT for me in this auction. I suppose you could adjust things to allow for that but only by giving up on some slam accuracy on other hands.
(-: Zel :-)

Happy New Year everyone!
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#5 User is offline   32519 

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Posted 2012-April-20, 06:44

View Postrhm, on 2012-April-20, 04:04, said:

Yesterday in a weak field with a weak partner the following pair of hands came up:



South opens proceedings with 2NT

Playing teams (short matches) we ended up in 6, but with a sequence too embarrassing to show.
Assuming a standard framework where over 2NT you play some sort of Stayman and Transfers what set of agreements do you use for minor suit oriented hands like North?

I am interested in the following questions:

How do you differentiate single suiters in the minors from minor two suiters?

Can you suggest a sensible sequence to get to 7?

Where (important at matchpoints) and how do you stop when North majors would have been reversed?

(I am aware that this type of problem is easier for strong clubbers)

Rainer Herrmann


I have upvoted this post. I have a further question. If the minor suits were 5/5 and 3/0 in the majors, how do the Puppet Stayman players continue with the bidding to find the minor suit slam?
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#6 User is offline   TWO4BRIDGE 

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Posted 2012-April-20, 07:12

From the May 2006 ACBL Bulletin ( in its unmodified form.... since then there have been modifications ):

2NT - 3S! = relay to 3NT
3NT - ?? then:
.......... Pass = to play ( Needed since direct 3N is major 4-4 )
.......... 4C = slam try in clubs
.......... 4D = slam try in diam
.......... 4H = Ht splinter, both minors
.......... 4S = Sp splinter, both minors
.......... 4N = invitational to 6N
.......... 5N = forcing to 6N, invitational to 7N

For this hand with my own continuations, I can get to 6D ; or if Responder's Majors were reversed -- just 5D
[ I don't know how to handle voids -- Zel's treatment is superior ].

2NT - 3S! ( relay to 3NT )
3NT! - 4S! ( both minors; Sp shortness )
??
.. 4NT = sign-off
... 5C/5D = sign-off
next steps are 6 Ace-RKC replies; Opener accepting as if he were "asked"
...5H = 0/3
...5S = 1/4
..5NT = 2 - dQ
... 6C = 2 + dQ

After:
5H ( 0/3) - 6C ( for pass or correct )
6D
Don Stenmark
TWOferBRIDGE
"imo by far in bridge the least understood concept is how to bid over a jump-shift
( 1M-1NT!-3m-?? )." ....Justin Lall

" Did someone mention relays? " .... Zelandakh

K-Rex to Mikeh : " Sometimes you drive me nuts " .
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#7 User is offline   32519 

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Posted 2012-April-20, 07:41

View PostZelandakh, on 2012-April-20, 06:07, said:

Assuming that it is agreed not to open 2NT with 5-4 in the majors,

2NT - 3 = clubs or both minors with slam interest
3NT = 2 clubs
... - 4 = both minors with spade void


How do you differentiate between a singleton and a void?

This thread of Rainer has really caught my interest.
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#8 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2012-April-20, 08:09

View Post32519, on 2012-April-20, 07:41, said:

How do you differentiate between a singleton and a void?

This thread of Rainer has really caught my interest.

With (12)55 or 11(56) you rebid 4 when partner shows 2 clubs with 3NT. Diamonds are implicitly agreed (Opener has at least 3) and I prefer Responder to be in charge even though the weaker hand. Opener would next indicate slam suitability, key cards are shown is appropriate and the right level obtained. Yes it is possible to be off an A-K in the major without having had a cue bidding auction but I have not yet seen any hands where it would happen, whether played, kibbitzed or read. No doubt someone will post one now so I get to read it! It will not make me change methods unless someone comes up with a way of checking for a control which does not negatively impact other slam bidding and is not overly difficult to remember (since this is a rare auction).
(-: Zel :-)

Happy New Year everyone!
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#9 User is offline   32519 

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Posted 2012-April-20, 08:50

View PostZelandakh, on 2012-April-20, 06:07, said:

Assuming that it is agreed not to open 2NT with 5-4 in the majors,

2NT - 3 = clubs or both minors with slam interest



As a Puppet player, how does your bidding change when 5/5 in the minors and 3/0 in the majors?
After 2NT-3 (Puppet Stayman)
3 (no 5-card major) how do you continue for the minor suit slam try?
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#10 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2012-April-20, 09:02

View Post32519, on 2012-April-20, 08:50, said:

As a Puppet player, how does your bidding change when 5/5 in the minors and 3/0 in the majors?
After 2NT-3 (Puppet Stayman)
3 (no 5-card major) how do you continue for the minor suit slam try?

If I am 5-5 in the minors with slam interest, why am I bothering to go via Puppet? We have our fit already. With (13)(54) I would Puppet, but then I have specialised 3M rebids over 3 to show 5-4 in the minors. If you want to misuse Puppet on every hand with a 3 card major then I can understand why you dislike it so much!
(-: Zel :-)

Happy New Year everyone!
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#11 User is offline   mike777 

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Posted 2012-April-20, 11:12

View Postrhm, on 2012-April-20, 04:04, said:

Yesterday in a weak field with a weak partner the following pair of hands came up:



South opens proceedings with 2NT

Playing teams (short matches) we ended up in 6, but with a sequence too embarrassing to show.
Assuming a standard framework where over 2NT you play some sort of Stayman and Transfers what set of agreements do you use for minor suit oriented hands like North?

I am interested in the following questions:

How do you differentiate single suiters in the minors from minor two suiters?

Can you suggest a sensible sequence to get to 7?





Where (important at matchpoints) and how do you stop when North majors would have been reversed?

(I am aware that this type of problem is easier for strong clubbers)

Rainer Herrmann



2nt=3s(mss)
4d=5s(exclusion)
5nt(3)=7d

if the majors are switched I go down in 6d on a heart lead.

option two is more delicate and judgment:


2nt=3s(mss)
4d=4s(spade void, since no 4h rkc bid)(4h would be rkc in d)(4nt would be h void)
5c=5d
5h=6c(kc)(deny Kh)
7d


with single suited minor I start with 3c and rebid 4 of the minor, natural.
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#12 User is offline   FrancesHinden 

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Posted 2012-April-20, 12:50

View Post32519, on 2012-April-20, 08:50, said:

As a Puppet player, how does your bidding change when 5/5 in the minors and 3/0 in the majors?
After 2NT-3 (Puppet Stayman)
3 (no 5-card major) how do you continue for the minor suit slam try?


You've now asked the same question twice - any reason for that?

Anyway, speaking as a puppet Stayman player if I had a hand such as xxx - A109xx KJ10xx I would not start with 3C, I would show a slam try with 5-5 in the minors.
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#13 User is offline   nigel_k 

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Posted 2012-April-20, 15:18

I prefer 3 as minors or diamonds, and 4 directly over 2NT as single suited clubs. This means that opener will rebid 4 setting trumps on this hand. If you play 3 as minors or clubs you can't do this. So we are in a cue bidding sequence after 4. Responder's 4 denies a heart control and therefore opener's 5 shows one. You will confidently reach at least 6 after that.
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#14 User is offline   32519 

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Posted 2012-April-20, 17:35

View Postmike777, on 2012-April-20, 11:12, said:

2nt=3s(mss)
4d=5s(exclusion)
5nt(3)=7d

if the majors are switched I go down in 6d on a heart lead.

option two is more delicate and judgment:

2nt=3s(mss)
4d=4s(spade void, since no 4h rkc bid)(4h would be rkc in d)(4nt would be h void)
5c=5d
5h=6c(kc)(deny Kh)
7d

with single suited minor I start with 3c and rebid 4 of the minor, natural.


This is very close to what I was toying with as well. MSS works here because opener had a 4-card minor. What do you do after MSS and opener has a 4432 or 4423 holding?
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#15 User is offline   32519 

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Posted 2012-April-20, 17:39

View PostFrancesHinden, on 2012-April-20, 12:50, said:

You've now asked the same question twice - any reason for that?

Anyway, speaking as a puppet Stayman player if I had a hand such as xxx - A109xx KJ10xx I would not start with 3C, I would show a slam try with 5-5 in the minors.


What is your next bid to advertise 5-5 in the minors? MSS is more often than not made with a 5-4 holding in the minors. My question to you is the same one I asked Mike777. After MSS how does your bidding continue when opener has a 4432 or 4423 holding (or even 5332 for that matter)?
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#16 User is offline   32519 

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Posted 2012-April-20, 17:52

These minor suit orientated hands after a 2NT opening cannot be seen in isolation. I am looking for constructive (logical) bidding agreements that can adequately describe these sorts of hands without forgetting how (my) other bidding agreements may be affected e.g.
1. Texas / SA Texas when transferring into a 6-card major
2. Gerber (for those who still use Gerber over 1NT/2NT)
3. 4-Way transfer bids
4. Minor Suit Stayman
5. Smolen (usually 5/4 in the majors but can also be 6/4)
6. Puppet Stayman (this one has now been ruled out by both Zelandakh and Frances Hinden when 5/5 in the minors)

Mike777’s suggestion is similar to what I was considering but I hit a wall when opener doesn’t have a 4-card minor.

What this thread hasn’t addressed yet is 5/5 in the minors and a bust. How do you sign off in 4 of either minor with a bust?
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#17 User is offline   pigpenz 

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Posted 2012-April-20, 18:10

I like the aces scientific method
2NT 3relay
3NT now bids correspond to broken or solid minors suits for single suited minor hands(above in one example)

2NT 4 minor suit stayman
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#18 User is offline   mike777 

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Posted 2012-April-20, 18:14

View Post32519, on 2012-April-20, 17:35, said:

This is very close to what I was toying with as well. MSS works here because opener had a 4-card minor. What do you do after MSS and opener has a 4432 or 4423 holding?



I would bid 4s over pards 3nt.....NOT LONG SPADES, NOT 4-4 IN THE MINORS.

now I may miss slam or the grand....

to be honest this has never come up.
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#19 User is offline   pigpenz 

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Posted 2012-April-20, 18:25

I ran a dealmaster pro analysis for this
and it looks like on this hand you are screwed <_<
2NT 12%
4 20%
4 25%

this for someone who asked about 0hcp and 5-5
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#20 User is offline   32519 

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Posted 2012-April-21, 00:20

Some numbers to add to this discussion:

The probabilities of being dealt a minor suit orientated hand in the slam zone opposite a 2NT:
5/4 in the minors and 8-20 HCP = 5.22%
5/5 in the minors and 8-20 HCP = 0.67%
6/5 in the minors and 8-20 HCP = 0.20%
6/6 in the minors and 8-20 HCP = 0.01%
Total.......................................= 6.10%

The probabilities of being dealt a minor suit orientated hand in the game zone opposite a 2NT:
5/4 in the minors and 5-7 HCP = 1.44%
5/5 in the minors and 5-7 HCP = 0.18%
6/5 in the minors and 5-7 HCP = 0.06%
6/6 in the minors and 5-7 HCP = 0.00% (so remote as to be negligible)
Total......................................= 1.68%

The probabilities of being dealt a minor suit orientated hand in the bust zone opposite a 2NT:
5/4 in the minors and 0-4 HCP = 0.62%
5/5 in the minors and 0-4 HCP = 0.08%
6/5 in the minors and 0-4 HCP = 0.02%
6/6 in the minors and 0-4 HCP = 0.00% (so remote as to be negligible)
Total......................................= 0.72%

Obviously the one to focus on is the 5/4 minor suit holding which favours retaining MSS in our bidding structures. If you’re a top flight player, inevitably you will need an agreement on how to sign off in 4 of either minor with a bust minor suit holding. Tell us what your agreement is. At a 0.72% probability of being dealt such a hand, I believe it worthwhile for top flight players to have such an agreement. 4-Way transfer bids now come to mind, at worst getting you into a 5-2 fit with a bust hand opposite a 2NT.

Rainer asked: Minors over 2NT – Do you have good agreements? This has got to include bust minor suit orientated hands as well.
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