[Chamaco]

Hi all !

I'd like to know from those who play Raptor 1NT overcall (showing 5+m and 4M shape) what range they are using.

Since I have started to adopt it, my pship agreements specified that: "Raptor 1NT guarantees specifically an opening hand strength but not a reverse".

This definition includes 10 hcp hands that you wd normally open in 1st/2dn seat up to some 15 hcp.

The advantage of the narrow definition is to protect the 1NT overcall from opps preemption.

The diadvantage is that when you have a hand with the same shape but too strong for Raptor, you'll have to double and rebid, and especially when you are 64 this can easily backfire.


So I was thinking of the alternative of playing 1NT as 10+ (eg unlimited range), so that the overcaller can show at his rebid whether he is or not minimum.

This should work well if LHO passes, but when the bidding goes

1♦-(1NT)-4/5♦-?
OR
1♠-(1NT)-4♠-?

Advancer may find himself in a situation where he does not know the strength of overcaller so he may not risk showing an existing minor or major suit fit.

BTW: This thread could be viewed just as falli back in the topic "Shape first or strength first?"- Ben where are you ???

Comments ?

[hrothgar]

There is no need to use Raptor to show unlimited strength
If you hold enough strength to reverse, then reverse...

What the problem?

[Chamaco]

hrothgar, on Nov 5 2004, 12:41 PM, said:

There is no need to use Raptor to show unlimited strength
If you hold enough strength to reverse, then reverse...

What the problem?

I am worried about hands where pard may pass my minor suit overcall.

Say I have a 17 count with 5 clubs and 4 spades.

I overcall clubs, and pard has a 7 count with 4 spades and a doubleton club.
He wil probably pass to avoid trouble.

In such hands, if opps do not keep the bidding open, I won't have a chance for a rebid showing a reverse.

true enough, nowadays not many opps will passout at the 2 level, but I do not think a good system should be based on hoping opps help you in such instances :-)

So for those 16-17+ hcp with Raptor shape I need a bid which pard won't pass.

[hrothgar]

Chamaco, on Nov 5 2004, 03:44 PM, said:

I am worried about hands where pard may pass my minor suit overcall.

Say I have a 17 count with 5 clubs and 4 spades.

In such hands, if opps do not keep the bidding open, I won't have a chance for a rebid showing a reverse.

true enough, nowadays not many opps will passout at the 2 level, but I do not think a good system should be based on hoping opps help you in such instances :-)

I'm not claiming that you don't need to do some work, but rather than an unlimited strength Raptor NT isn't a good way to achieve accuracy in your overcall structure.

In particular, you need to detemine a few boundary conditions. For example, what it the maximum strength for sequences that start with a reverse rather than a power double and how does this relate to the minimum strength necessary for an advance.

[Chamaco]

hrothgar, on Nov 5 2004, 12:57 PM, said:

In particular, you need to detemine a few boundary conditions.  For example, what it the maximum strength for sequences that start with a reverse rather than a power double and how does this relate to the minimum strength necessary  for an advance.

Yes, that's where I need help and suggestions from you folks !!

Just to repeat here, I am not sure which is the least evil between (although it is clkear which aspect I am slightly biased towards :-) ):

1- using unlimited Raptor: vulnerable to preemtion but effectibve if opps do not preempt too high.
Also, there is an advantage in disclosing the precise shape to pard, even if strength can be wide range (The "shape first approach" which was discussed by Ben and others in other threads).
To me, it seems that the "shape first" approach is not far from the phylosophy of Robson-Segal style of competitive bidding.

2- doubling + new suit when holding a "power" 6m4M hand (regardless of which is the boundary stength selected by pship, let's assume a good 16 or 17+ here).
X+new suit is really awkward with 64 hands and even 54 can be quite bothering sequences.

[luke warm]

i personally wouldn't use raptor as unlimited, but then i wouldn't need to... there are other ways to force the bid... if you limit it to 10/11-15/16 you can use double *and* a cuebid to show other hands

[inquiry]

My use of raptor.

I am a shape-first, points later kind of guy. If I have the hand, I use raptor. I will never overcall in a minor with a shorter four card major (some xxxx suits in major I ignore).... but I might double with a very stong hand, 4 major, longer, stong minor and great hand.

BTW, with misho only, my RAPTOR can include a five card major and 5+ minor...at the current time, I am not sure if this is an advantage or disadvantage, but he likes it... not enough hands for me to decide, and I ahve not run any simuliatons

Ben

[the hog]

I think unlimited Raptor is too problematical - about 9-15 for me. I also think specifically 4M 5=m is better than Misho's suggestion. Responder knows the level of the fit on a tnt basis.

[pclayton]

When I've played it (only occasionally), it shows 8-14, but can vary somewhat with vulnerability and length of suits.

A suggestion would be to base the call on loser count (our preference is 5-7 (5-8 at green)), as we do playing overcall structure, rather than HCP. All of the following 6 loser hands would qualify for a raptor overcall of 1♠:

void, Jxxxx, x, Axxxxxx
x, QJxxx, x, Axxxxx
x, AQxx, xx, Axxxxx
xx. AKxx, xx, AQxxx