[jtfanclub]

Flame, on Nov 6 2004, 12:53 AM, said:

OK but what if partner has more offensive hand like:
Axxx
Ax
xx
Kxxxx
Does he still double 2D ?

Given the vulnerability and scoring, I think under normal bidding it's a 3♣ bid. It's a guaranteed fit (partner opened 1♣), invitational but not forcing...partner has enough information now to determine where the hand should go.

This is a close call between 3♣ and X for me. The long clubs imply that we may have fewer club tricks than we think- we may have a 10 card club fit, for example. If we do, that makes for a dangerous X. So I guess it isn't a close call for me after all- it's 3♣.

What it is not is a 3D bid. You don't have a hand capable of a game-forcing bid, and you don't have much in extras. If partner doesn't have a real diamond stop, 3♣ is the limit of the hand.

Remember, the guy bidding 3♦ isn't one of the beginners and intermediates who do not double when its meaning is unclear to them.. This is the expert choosing 3♦ over pass, X, 2♠, 2NT, and 3♣.

[Flame]

jtfanclub, on Nov 6 2004, 01:52 AM, said:

Flame, on Nov 6 2004, 12:53 AM, said:

OK but what if partner has more offensive hand like:
Axxx
Ax
xx
Kxxxx
Does he still double 2D ?

Given the vulnerability and scoring, I think under normal bidding it's a 3♣ bid. It's a guaranteed fit (partner opened 1♣), invitational but not forcing...partner has enough information now to determine where the hand should go.

This is a close call between 3♣ and X for me. The long clubs imply that we may have fewer club tricks than we think- we may have a 10 card club fit, for example. If we do, that makes for a dangerous X. So I guess it isn't a close call for me after all- it's 3♣.

What it is not is a 3D bid. You don't have a hand capable of a game-forcing bid, and you don't have much in extras. If partner doesn't have a real diamond stop, 3♣ is the limit of the hand.

Remember, the guy bidding 3♦ isn't one of the beginners and intermediates who do not double when its meaning is unclear to them.. This is the expert choosing 3♦ over pass, X, 2♠, 2NT, and 3♣.

You are avoiding the problem, so you treat this as inv and not rnough for game, i could argue with you but why should i lets just add a bit so u will have a GF
AQxx
Ax
xx
Kxxxx
now what ?
btw jtfanclub im curios for how long do you play bridge ?

[jtfanclub]

Flame, on Nov 6 2004, 02:04 AM, said:

You are avoiding the problem, so you treat this as inv and not rnough for game, i could argue with you but why should i lets just add a bit so u will have a GF
AQxx
Ax
xx
Kxxxx
now what ?
btw jtfanclub im curios for how long do you play bridge ?

Now a 3♦ bid is reasonable. But now, you'll notice, the last thing you want is some sort of ambiguous 3♠ call. 4♣ works fine- you'll end up in 5 or 6. So does 3NT. But 3♠ doesn't tell you anything you wanted to know about.

I've been playing for 23 years, and I'm still an Intermediate. Slow learner, I guess.

[Flame]

jtfanclub, on Nov 6 2004, 02:30 AM, said:

Flame, on Nov 6 2004, 02:04 AM, said:

You are avoiding the problem, so you treat this as inv and not rnough for game, i could argue with you but why should i lets just add a bit so u will have a GF
AQxx
Ax
xx
Kxxxx
now what ?
btw jtfanclub im curios for how long do you play bridge ?

Now a 3♦ bid is reasonable. But now, you'll notice, the last thing you want is some sort of ambiguous 3♠ call. 4♣ works fine- you'll end up in 5 or 6. So does 3NT. But 3♠ doesn't tell you anything you wanted to know about.

I've been playing for 23 years, and I'm still an Intermediate. Slow learner, I guess.

3sp isnt ambigious its simply showing 3 cards spade and does so below 3nt so we can still play there if we got no fit.
I am very surprise to see you are playing bridge for 23 years.
I thought you are younger then 23 years old, a new player.
You say you're a slow learner so let me tell you one thing and pls dont be offended, you are oviously a smart guy, and lpaying bridge for a long time, i can think of just one resson why you arent an expert, and this resson is you do not open your mind enough, not a good listener, you should try to learn from others, even if someone is 99% wrong try and look at he 1% where he is right and learn from it, i suspect today you are more or less doign the opposite, you look for the 1% wrong.
Hope you take it for the good as i ment it.

[jtfanclub]

Flame, on Nov 6 2004, 03:23 AM, said:

Quote

3sp isnt ambigious its simply showing 3 cards spade and does so below 3nt so we can still play there if we got no fit.

Should be fun. I forget, why do you think you don't have a club fit?

Quote

You say you're a slow learner so let me tell you one thing and pls dont be offended, you are oviously a smart guy, and lpaying bridge for a long time, i can think of just one resson why you arent an expert, and this resson is you do not open your mind enough, not a good listener, you should try to learn from others, even if someone is 99% wrong try and look at he 1% where he is right and learn from it, i suspect today you are more or less doign the opposite, you look for the 1% wrong.

There's a number of reasons:
1. I didn't take the game seriously until a year ago.
2. I play in the U.S., which retards my ability to learn defenses against some of the more unusual systems.
3. I'm in no hurry. I would rather not learn ten right things than learn one wrong thing. This is how I learn new things- I take an idea, and worry it in my teeth until its neck snaps. If it doesn't, then I adopt it, and only then. Unlearning is a pain in the glutes.
4. I am, in my opinion, more aware of my weaknesses than the average person here.

Quote

Hope you take it for the good as i ment it.

I'm not offended, but you don't even know my full name, you've never seen me play with a regular partner, you've never even spoken to me in real life. All you know about me is what you've seen on some message board.

If you think you can figure me, or anybody else, out so easily you're sorely mistaken.

[Flame]

Ok maybe i dont know you enough, but let me teach you some basic that you might have forgoten.
When you have a game strengh:
You first look for a major fit, if this exist you play in major, if there is no major fit, you look for stopers, if those exist you play in 3NT notrump , if there are no stoper you consider between a minor fit and a 7 card major fit.
This should be your normal bidding procedure, sure there might be an excpetion here and there.

[jtfanclub]

Flame, on Nov 6 2004, 04:53 AM, said:

Ok maybe i dont know you enough, but let me teach you some basic that you might have forgoten.

This should be your normal bidding procedure, sure there might be an excpetion here and there.

Quote

When you have a game strengh:  You first look for a major fit, if this exist you play in major, if there is no major fit, you look for stopers, if those exist you play in 3NT notrump , if there are no stoper you consider between a minor fit and a 7 card major fit.

When I was a child, that's what I was taught.

When I got older, I found out that learning about controls is far more important than learning about 5-3 fits. That's why people do things like play Zar points and cue bid. This hand is an excellent example: this is a hand where controls are going to be the difference between going down 2 at 3NT and making 6 in a black suit.

Want to know the first thing I learned after the rule of 11?

When your partner has control of the auction, and he asks you something, tell him what he asks for, not what you think he needs to know. If your partner wanted to know if you had two spades or three (he already knows you have two), he'd bid 3♠, not 3♦. Instead, he's asked for controls.

So tell him.

[Rebound]

Just my 2 cents....
On an auction like this, we would normally play 3 diamonds as being an ambiguous cue bid. Normally, it asks for a diamond stop for NT, but in the event of another call by the 3NT bidder it becomes a slam try. E.g. ...3D-3NT-4C/D/H... However, on this hand, after denying 4-card support over 1S, we would bid 3S/3D, denying a heart stop and showing 3 spades. Note this does not deny a diamond stop since, as mentioned above, you can't bid 3S and 3NT at the same time.

[luke warm]

jtfanclub, on Nov 6 2004, 07:13 AM, said:

But if a regular partner of mine insists that anything other than double is the right bid, I don't want to play with them. 

If that's arrogant, so be it.

it is, and it's refreshing to see someone who obviously doesn't care how arrogant he not only sounds, but upon occasion can be

as to if your partner insists that *any* bid other than double is right, flame showed you a couple... the majority of world class players i've seen are not as dogmatic as you... i've seen fred, on more than one occasion, admit he couldn't be sure whether a certain bid or play was the best.. maybe he should have asked you..

but hell, maybe your partner would *rather* play against 3 opponents than 2

[Flame]

jtfanclub, on Nov 6 2004, 05:36 AM, said:

Flame, on Nov 6 2004, 04:53 AM, said:

Ok maybe i dont know you enough, but let me teach you some basic that you might have forgoten.

This should be your normal bidding procedure, sure there might be an excpetion here and there.

Quote

When you have a game strengh:  You first look for a major fit, if this exist you play in major, if there is no major fit, you look for stopers, if those exist you play in 3NT notrump , if there are no stoper you consider between a minor fit and a 7 card major fit.

When I was a child, that's what I was taught.

When I got older, I found out that learning about controls is far more important than learning about 5-3 fits. That's why people do things like play Zar points and cue bid. This hand is an excellent example: this is a hand where controls are going to be the difference between going down 2 at 3NT and making 6 in a black suit.

Want to know the first thing I learned after the rule of 11?

When your partner has control of the auction, and he asks you something, tell him what he asks for, not what you think he needs to know. If your partner wanted to know if you had two spades or three (he already knows you have two), he'd bid 3♠, not 3♦. Instead, he's asked for controls.

So tell him.

Bridge is one of the simplest games out there, usually the things you learn in your begginer's life are much more importent then those you learn as an expert, here is a good example finding your major fit is way more importent then anything else. (might miss something but id say finding a major fit is the most importent task in bridge, before counting points, controls, stopers, or anything else i can think about right now)
Zar points is just a nice evaluation system, if you cant find ur 5-3 fits u can throw zar to the garbage.
Cue bids are slam bidding ment to do 2 things, first check if we have extras for slams and only second check that we dont have a quick 2 losers in a suit. too many people misplay cue bids as an alternative to ace asking question.
Again cue bids are far far less importent then finding ur major suit fit.
Stopers (i never know if u mean controls or stopers) are another misuser tool, too many ppl check for stopers when its better to just bid 3NT and hope we have them, the stoper checking reveal alot and should only when other conditions exist.
Now to this 3D bid, a forcing bid like this one, or 4th siot forcing, or new minor forcing, or checkback, or magister, is a general all around bid which has some task you can list in order of priority, ill list them from most importent to less importent
1. finding a major suit fit.
2. finding a stoper to play 3nt from the right side.
3. creating a forcing auction when you have a fit or ur own suit/s to show.
btw 3S isnt the way to show 5 spades, 3sp is usually plays as an invitational with good 6 card suit. some might play it as GF but nearly every time responder bid his suit again it show a 6 card.
Examples :
1x - - 1y
almost any - 3y = 6 card suit.

[inquiry]

Hi Jilly,

For the most part, forget the discussion up to this point. The 3♦ bid had nothing to do with Zar points. A pick up expert would never bid 4♦ with you as a self-splinter (but ron was right, this is a good bid in an established partnership), out of fear that you will think that shows shortness AND A CLUB fit.

Your expert had a plan. He hoped you would bid 3NT, and he would bid 4♠ to show this hand. Some slam interest, great spades, control in diamonds. If you bid 3S, he would bid diamonds again. If you bid 3H, he may have planned to cue-bid diamonds again. His was a simple plan for a pickup partnership. He showed what he had, your pass, without a red suit control was perfect. He focussed your attention on the need for controls in both off suits (outside spades and diamonds), your auction and the result was 100% correct.

The reason he doesn't just jump to 4S over 2D is that then you will not play him to have diamonds controlled. Your partner was thinking two steps ahead, not just one. VERY WELL DONE, imo, a nice auction.

Ben

[jtfanclub]

Quote

as to if your partner insists that *any* bid other than double is right, flame showed you a couple...

If after this bidding,

1D P 1S X
1NT 2D

If my partner has:
AKxx AKx xxx xxx

I need my partner to X.
This doesn't mean that with every possible hand, he needs to X.
Showing that with some other hand X would be a bad call is irrelevant.
It doesn't mean that there isn't some system where a different bid would be correct.
It doesn't mean that other system isn't better than the one I play.

It means that, if my partner thinks some other bid is the right one, then I don't understand his bidding, so it's best not to play with him again. Doesn't matter if that partner is Zia- the most important part of the game is understanding your partner's bids.

With all of my regular partners, all systems are on when we overcall a NT. I'm quite insistent on that.
Why do I insist? So I don't get confused when I play with a different partner.
Nothing to do with whether I think it's the best system or not.
So if the bidding goes 1D 1NT P 2H, if the person's my regular partner, he'd better bloody well mean spades.

Doesn't mean that there aren't better systems out there.

I apologize to all for hijacking the thread- it certainly wasn't my intent. I'm going to stop now. If you feel the need to continue this, my email address is public.

[luke warm]

jtfanclub, on Nov 7 2004, 12:31 AM, said:

It means that, if my partner thinks some other bid is the right one, then I don't understand his bidding, so it's best not to play with him again. Doesn't matter if that partner is Zia- the most important part of the game is understanding your partner's bids.

well i agree it's an important part, but i disagree it's the *most* important... if for some strange reason zia wanted to play 16 boards with me, i'd sure want to do it again, whether or not i understood *anything*... the reason is, i'd learn something on most of those boards... it would never enter my mind that "..it's best not to play with him again" simply because his superior bidding and playing were not quite understood by me

surely, in time, they wouldn't remain misunderstood... your attitude all the way thru, that it's more important to have a partner who played the way *you* want rather than one who might, occasionally, teach you something, is hard to understand... admitting your way (at least a partner's understanding of your way) might be inferior, yet insisting on it regardless, doesn't make a lot of sense to me

[jdulmage]

Clearly it can't be anything BUT a first round control in diamonds. Bid 4♣.

[the hog]

"A pick up expert would never bid 4♦ with you as a self-splinter (but ron was right, this is a good bid in an established partnership), out of fear that you will think that shows shortness AND A CLUB fit. "

Fair comment.