[helene_t]

I play limit raises on 3-card support when playing a natural system without the forcing 1NT but would not do so playing Precision.

The limited major suit openings are a great asset that you have payed a high price for (the strong 1♣ opening) so you should make efficient use of them. A limit raise on 3-card support is inefficient, not only because of the chance of missing a slam (Precision 1M can be slightly lighter than standard so a limit raise should be slightly heavier), but also because opener has to make an uninformed guess after a 3+ limit raise and because 3M may not be LOTT-safe.

I think it's better to play the limit raises with 3-card support through a relay (either a forcing 1NT or 2♣).

BTW, do limit raises exist at all in Precision? You could pass with 0-6 (or support preemptively if the conditions are right), play the 7-9 raises via 1NT and the 10-12 as a single raise. With 13 force to game.

[Chamaco]

helene_t, on Jan 11 2005, 09:51 AM, said:

BTW, do limit raises exist at all in Precision? You could pass with 0-6 (or support preemptively if the conditions are right), play the 7-9 raises via 1NT and the 10-12 as a single raise. With 13 force to game.

I have found that passing with weak hands opposite pard's limited openings is rarely a good idea: it gives away too much info to opps, who know that our pard has <16 AND that we passed, so they know the hands likely belong to them, and it's easier for them to bid game if they have one.

Instead, responding with very weak hands, eve opposite a limited opener, even if we have no chance for game, usually lets the opps in the dark: they will not know how the balance of power splits.

The THEORETICAL PLUSES would be that with a hand without game prospect but quite good, say, 8-9 hcp and a misfit, we may pass and opps may enter the bidding and we may get them... A few times it will work...
But many times, the penalty won't be as much rewarding at 2 level, other times we'll have game because pard has distribution opposite our 8-9 hcp...
Also, the limited opener may be quite weak some times, and our penalty doubles will backfire then...
Too many ifs...
So, even with a decent 8 hcp without a great fit, I think it's almost always right to use the bidding tempo advantage on opps.

So, with support in a major, I use

- 3 card raises, 0-7 goes via 1NT forcing
- 3 card raises 8-9/10 hcp (more or less 9 losers) = single raise
- 3 card rais, inv go via 1NT forcing
- 3 card raise GF go via a 2/1
- 4 card raises are conventional (preemptive, mixed, invitational and GF)

Without support and a very weak hand, I might use 1NT forcing to pass any response by p, when not vuln.

--------------------------------------------------------

I want to add a further point related to the original question (e.g. "do we need to differentiate 3 vs 4 card support to a limited opener?").

IMO, the answer is YES!!!! we need it !
The difference in playing strength of 5-4 fit vs the 5-3 fit is often 1-1.5 trick, so opener will know that with 4 trumps support he may accept with most hands whereas with a 3card support limit raise he'll need more.

For some examples on the importance of the 9th trump, see the following articles by Mike Lawrence:

http://www.michaelsl...es/012_frm.html
http://www.michaelsl...es/013_frm.html
http://www.michaelsl...es/014_frm.html

These article refer to "Standard bidding" but the importance of the 9th trump applies to any system, regardless of whether opener is limited or not.
It is also the reason why I STRONGLY dislike the use of Jacoby 2NT (or similar GF raises) which do NOT guarantee a 4th trump but could be generically 3 card support or better.
GF raises (actually, ANY raise) should definitely distinguish 4+ trump support from 3 cd support, because that will strongly impact the slam potential.

[mikestar]

bglover, on May 31 2003, 02:40 PM, said:

Since I agree with you 1000% I am going to give you a hand I picked up a few years ago:

Void
Void
AKQ10xxx
KQJxxx

I showed this hand to three precision players (two on this site, contact me for names if you want to know who), and asked them what they would open. All three said 1D.

Nuff said.

This is better opened 1D in Precison, but not for the reasons the other players gave. The playing strength makes this a clear 1C opener, but consider your two major suit voids. By the time it gets back to you, the bidding will be at least at 4M. So I open 1D tactically, intending to rebid 6C! (The real difficulty is if they have bid 6M--do I bid 7C as a make if partner has AC or a cheap sac if they do.)

For the same reason I would open 1D rather than 2C palying 2/1.