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Heart auctions Double checking some bread and butter auctions

#1 User is offline   wyman 

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Posted 2012-April-03, 09:06

2 things about heart auctions, just wanted to make sure I'm not being dumb.

1) After 4N keycard and a 5C response, 5D is the Q-ask. Do people play 5S is specific kings here and 5N is asking for a 3rd rd spade ctrl? Seems like they should.

2) In a nonserious 3N situation such as
1H-2N!
3H-?

Are people playing 3S as the nonserious bid and 3N is a serious spade cue? If not, is 3S serious, or is it nonserious+?
"I think maybe so and so was caught cheating but maybe I don't have the names right". Sure, and I think maybe your mother .... Oh yeah, that was someone else maybe. -- kenberg

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#2 User is offline   Phil 

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Posted 2012-April-03, 09:20

1. Yes. Playing kickback, 5 is crystal clear as a king ask, and playing standard it should be a King ask and not some spade asking bid.

2. Yes, absolutely. Here's the problem. When hearts are trump, and a spade cue bid is made below NS 3N, what does it say? Maybe its serious, but if we skip 3 to say 'not interested in slam', does that deny a spade control altogether? Much better to play 3 as non-serious and 3N as serious spade cue.
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#3 User is offline   aguahombre 

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Posted 2012-April-03, 10:12

View Postwyman, on 2012-April-03, 09:06, said:

2 things about heart auctions, just wanted to make sure I'm not being dumb.

1) After 4N keycard and a 5C response, 5D is the Q-ask. Do people play 5S is specific kings here and 5N is asking for a 3rd rd spade ctrl? Seems like they should.

2) In a nonserious 3N situation such as
1H-2N!
3H-?

Are people playing 3S as the nonserious bid and 3N is a serious spade cue?

1)--Yes it does.
2)--Yes, it is workable to do that. Some are now using 1H-2S for Jacoby, with 1H-2N natural, now. This allows some use of the 2NT rebid by opener involving serious/non-serious from the other side of the table.
"Bidding Spades to show spades can work well." (Kenberg)
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#4 User is offline   gordontd 

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Posted 2012-April-03, 10:34

View PostPhil, on 2012-April-03, 09:20, said:

2. Yes, absolutely. Here's the problem. When hearts are trump, and a spade cue bid is made below NS 3N, what does it say? Maybe its serious, but if we skip 3 to say 'not interested in slam', does that deny a spade control altogether? Much better to play 3 as non-serious and 3N as serious spade cue.

I don't argue against you exchanging 3 & 3NT, but I think your problem is over-stated. Without exchanging the two bids, 3 shows a spade control, but doesn't comment on seriousness; partner's next call will indicate that by whether or not s/he bypasses 3NT. If you continue in spite of lack of seriousness from partner, you indicate a serious slam try.
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#5 User is offline   TWO4BRIDGE 

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Posted 2012-April-03, 11:16

are trump :

1) Yes, 5NT! is the 3rd-Rnd Ctrl-ask in .
This was a side-issue in a thread back in February ... http://www.bridgebas...__1#entry616493 ..

( Zelandakh pointed it out ).

2) When suit agreement is on the 3-level, I think you must bid 3S with a Ctrl whether 3NT is Serious or not.

From Fred: When playing Serious-3NT, by-passing 3S to bid a Serious-3NT would DENY a -Ctrl.
Thus, 3S must be bid w/-Ctrl... any other bid would deny a -Ctrl.

On the other hand, when playing non-Serious-3NT, if 3S is by-passed to bid non-Serious-3NT, it would deny a -Ctrl.... so 3S must be bid with a -Ctrl.... any other bid would deny a -Ctrl.

The best I can say is that 3S seems to be an "ambiguous" cue.

Fred's example auction was:
1H - 2D! ( GF )
2H - 3H
3S - 3NT! ( Serious )
4C ..etc

This post has been edited by TWO4BRIDGE: 2012-April-03, 11:55

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#6 User is offline   mike777 

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Posted 2012-April-03, 13:23

it seems 2nt should be a serious raise....it seems making the 2nt bidder show serious or nonserious is really a nonimportant priority.

if 2nt is not a strong raise then that is another matter.
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#7 User is offline   Phil 

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Posted 2012-April-03, 14:48

View Postgordontd, on 2012-April-03, 10:34, said:

I don't argue against you exchanging 3 & 3NT, but I think your problem is over-stated. Without exchanging the two bids, 3 shows a spade control, but doesn't comment on seriousness; partner's next call will indicate that by whether or not s/he bypasses 3NT. If you continue in spite of lack of seriousness from partner, you indicate a serious slam try.
Lots of reasons:

One of the benefits of playing non-serious in the first place is that one partner does not have to make revealing calls to the opponents in the hopes partner to has a slam try in a GF sequence.

There is an internal logic to cuebidding. Before Serious 3N was around, you would see auctions like:

Opening, GF response, rebid, trump agreement, maybe a waiting bid(s) to pattern, and then either partner would express slam interest by cuebidding (Ken Rexford believes cuebidding takes priority over patterning). If they did not have slam interest they would sign off. This left their poor partner with a hand that makes slam with the right minimum but is also down at the five level.

Then someone came up with the concept of a 'courtesy cue'. A partner would cue just in case partner was interested, and then the partner would cue back and there would be a very intelligent auction, but no one had a clue about the strength of the two hands, so this was worse than the 'cue to show extras' idea. I remember playing this style and it was tantamount to looking for your car keys in a dark room.

Out of this dilemma, Serious 3N was born (I think its Rodwell's idea, and Bergen called it the 'rolling 3N'). 3N isn't really needed when we have a big major fit, so have 4x as a 'courtesy cue', and 3N as 'I love my hand', please cue.

Non-Serious 3N is a big improvement, because it sends a message, I am only interested in slam if you have extras. If not, please sign off and stop telegraphing your hand to the opponents.

I have even toyed with playing some sort of non-serious flag at even a low level as in:

1 - 2
2 - 2
2N*

to say "I have a minimum. If you aren't interested in anything more than game, then bid it". This seems to be a better use of the bid than "hey opponents, I'm 5422, so make sure you duck your ace as I lead toward my KJ doubleton".

Using 3 as a cue prior to either partner expressing an opinion whether or not we might have a slam is not a good idea. If the partner in a position to cuebid 3 (assuming 3N is the bid) cues regardless of his intent, that doesnt seem like a sound structure to me.
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#8 User is offline   JLOGIC 

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Posted 2012-April-03, 16:01

View Postwyman, on 2012-April-03, 09:06, said:

2 things about heart auctions, just wanted to make sure I'm not being dumb.

1) After 4N keycard and a 5C response, 5D is the Q-ask. Do people play 5S is specific kings here and 5N is asking for a 3rd rd spade ctrl? Seems like they should.

2) In a nonserious 3N situation such as
1H-2N!
3H-?

Are people playing 3S as the nonserious bid and 3N is a serious spade cue? If not, is 3S serious, or is it nonserious+?


Re 1: It is useful to just think of things in terms of steps imo, where step 1=Q ask, step 2=K ask. And if Q is known then step 1=K ask (meaning over 5H 2 without the queen, 5S should be the king ask unless spades are trumps). I would not say this is "common" though, it is definitely something you should discuss, generally people who care about this enough to get this far start playing kickback ime.

Quote

I don't argue against you exchanging 3♠ & 3NT, but I think your problem is over-stated. Without exchanging the two bids, 3♠ shows a spade control, but doesn't comment on seriousness; partner's next call will indicate that by whether or not s/he bypasses 3NT. If you continue in spite of lack of seriousness from partner, you indicate a serious slam try.


Yes, it's obviously not a huge deal, it is just a little bit more efficient, as is the case with almost all of these switches.
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#9 User is offline   TWO4BRIDGE 

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Posted 2012-April-04, 08:06

View PostPhil, on 2012-April-03, 14:48, said:


View Postgordontd, on 2012-April-03, 10:34, said:

I don't argue against you exchanging 3 & 3NT, but I think your problem is over-stated. Without exchanging the two bids, 3 shows a spade control, but doesn't comment on seriousness; partner's next call will indicate that by whether or not s/he bypasses 3NT. If you continue in spite of lack of seriousness from partner, you indicate a serious slam try.


Using 3 as a cue prior to either partner expressing an opinion whether or not we might have a slam is not a good idea. If the partner in a position to cuebid 3 (assuming 3N is the bid) cues regardless of his intent, that doesnt seem like a sound structure to me.


But Fred G says you have to ( bid 3S with a Ctrl... no matter what ).... and Gordon's logic "to sort things out later" is worth repeating.
Partner still has a chance to bid "3NT" over the 3S cue ( whether it is Serious or not ).
If he bids 3NT ( non-Serious ) and you continue to cue, doesn't that show that YOU were Serious in the first place ?

( Beside, whatever Fred says goes double for me ).
Don Stenmark
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"imo by far in bridge the least understood concept is how to bid over a jump-shift
( 1M-1NT!-3m-?? )." ....Justin Lall

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#10 User is offline   Phil 

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Posted 2012-April-04, 09:11

Don, you do realize that Fred wrote these articles around 20 years ago, right?
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#11 User is offline   TWO4BRIDGE 

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Posted 2012-April-04, 11:14

View PostPhil, on 2012-April-04, 09:11, said:

Don, you do realize that Fred wrote these articles around 20 years ago, right?

Has it been that long ago ? ( Ohhh, Fred.... where are you when I need you ) .

But let me put it another way.
After 3H ( and are agreed ) , there are FOUR cue bidding situations for partner's next bid ( BELOW 4H or RKC ):

1) Have -Ctrl, but Non-Serious hand

2) Have -Ctrl, but have a Serious hand

3) NO -Ctrl, but Non-Serious hand

4) NO -Ctrl, but have Serious hand

BUT you only have THREE alternatives ( BELOW 4H or RKC ) :
a ) 3S
b ) 3NT
c ) 4C/4D ( cue, denying a -Ctrl )

No matter if 3NT = Serious or not OR if you switch the meanings of 3NT and 3S! , you are one bid short of covering the FOUR situations.
Sooo, 20 years or whatever, you HAVE to cue 3S WITH a -CTRL... no matter what "Seriousness" you play.
Any other bid would DENY a -Ctrl.
Don Stenmark
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"imo by far in bridge the least understood concept is how to bid over a jump-shift
( 1M-1NT!-3m-?? )." ....Justin Lall

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#12 User is offline   wyman 

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Posted 2012-April-04, 12:13

View PostTWO4BRIDGE, on 2012-April-04, 11:14, said:

Has it been that long ago ? ( Ohhh, Fred.... where are you when I need you ) .

But let me put it another way.
After 3H ( and are agreed ) , there are FOUR cue bidding situations for partner's next bid ( BELOW 4H or RKC ):

1) Have -Ctrl, but Non-Serious hand

2) Have -Ctrl, but have a Serious hand

3) NO -Ctrl, but Non-Serious hand

4) NO -Ctrl, but have Serious hand

BUT you only have THREE alternatives ( BELOW 4H or RKC ) :
a ) 3S
b ) 3NT
c ) 4C/4D ( cue, denying a -Ctrl )

No matter if 3NT = Serious or not OR if you switch the meanings of 3NT and 3S! , you are one bid short of covering the FOUR situations.
Sooo, 20 years or whatever, you HAVE to cue 3S WITH a -CTRL... no matter what "Seriousness" you play.
Any other bid would DENY a -Ctrl.


I agree with everything you said until you told me what i HAVE to do.

Why can't I prioritize seriousness here instead of _my_ spade control? Partner can still cue _her_ spade control after I bid a non-serious 3S (saying nothing about spades). I don't see why your way is clearly better (and in fact, I think it's kind of clear that swapping 3S and 3N is better). Am I being really dense here? I feel like I'm missing something...

edit: Ha, I think I see what you are saying. I can cue 3S without a spade control as well, if that's my agreement, but what's UN-playable is bypassing 3S with a spade control and a nonserious or better hand. Totally agree with that (if that's what you were saying).
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#13 User is offline   TWO4BRIDGE 

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Posted 2012-April-04, 12:47

View Postwyman, on 2012-April-04, 12:13, said:

I agree with everything you said until you told me what i HAVE to do.

Why can't I prioritize seriousness here instead of _my_ spade control? Partner can still cue _her_ spade control after I bid a non-serious 3S (saying nothing about spades). I don't see why your way is clearly better (and in fact, I think it's kind of clear that swapping 3S and 3N is better). Am I being really dense here? I feel like I'm missing something...

Yes, I've been scratching my head over this for a few days now.
I should have said that "my way" allows you to make a -cue BELOW the 4-level.

Ok, let's say you have "swapped" the meanings of 3S and 3NT in the context of non-Serious .
That means ( "my" way ):
(1) 3S! = non-Serious hand w/o a -Ctrl... whereas:
(2) 3NT! would be = non-Serious hand w/ a -Ctrl.
So far, so good.
And if you had a Serious hand w/o a -Ctrl, you could bid:
(3) 4C! ( Serious, w/ -Ctrl but NO -Ctrl).
So far, so good.
But if you had a (4) Serious hand WITH a -Ctrl, what do I bid ?
I would bid 3NT! as in (2) BUT in BOTH cases would "say nothing" about "Seriousness".
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Now, let's look at YOUR way :
(1) 3S! = non-Serious ( saying nothing about )
(2) 3NT! = Serious ( saying nothing about ? )
(3) 4C! = same as above
(4) 3NT! = Serious ( saying nothing about )

And the -cue would have to be at the 4-level ( unless the partner who goes RKC has it ).....
.... and admittedly, this could be workable.

This post has been edited by TWO4BRIDGE: 2012-April-04, 13:00

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#14 User is offline   wyman 

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Posted 2012-April-04, 12:52

What I'm proposing, to be clear:

3S = nonserious, says nothing about spades
...3N = spade cue
...4C = club cue, denies spade cue
...4D = diamond cue, denies S&C cues

3N = serious spade cue

4C = serious club cue, denies spade cue

4D = serious diamond cue, denies S & C cue
"I think maybe so and so was caught cheating but maybe I don't have the names right". Sure, and I think maybe your mother .... Oh yeah, that was someone else maybe. -- kenberg

"...we live off being battle-scarred veterans who manage to hate our opponents slightly more than we hate each other. -- Hamman, re: Wolff
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#15 User is offline   TWO4BRIDGE 

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Posted 2012-April-04, 13:08

View Postwyman, on 2012-April-04, 12:52, said:

What I'm proposing, to be clear:

3S = non-serious, says nothing about spades
...3N = spade cue
...4C = club cue, denies spade cue
...4D = diamond cue, denies S&C cues

3N = serious spade cue

4C = serious club cue, denies spade cue

4D = serious diamond cue, denies S & C cue


Thx, That is much clearer now ( you have been the first to really explain the "switching" -- or I have been too dense to grasp it ).... and I think it works !
Don Stenmark
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"imo by far in bridge the least understood concept is how to bid over a jump-shift
( 1M-1NT!-3m-?? )." ....Justin Lall

" Did someone mention relays? " .... Zelandakh

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#16 User is offline   wyman 

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Posted 2012-April-04, 13:14

No problem. I had a feeling we were on different wavelengths, but I wasn't sure.
"I think maybe so and so was caught cheating but maybe I don't have the names right". Sure, and I think maybe your mother .... Oh yeah, that was someone else maybe. -- kenberg

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#17 User is offline   Phil 

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Posted 2012-April-04, 13:49

View Postwyman, on 2012-April-04, 12:52, said:

What I'm proposing, to be clear:

3S = nonserious, says nothing about spades
...3N = spade cue
...4C = club cue, denies spade cue
...4D = diamond cue, denies S&C cues

3N = serious spade cue

4C = serious club cue, denies spade cue

4D = serious diamond cue, denies S & C cue


S.O.P.
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#18 User is offline   TWO4BRIDGE 

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Posted 2012-April-04, 17:35

View Postwyman, on 2012-April-04, 12:52, said:

What I'm proposing, to be clear:

3S = non-serious, says nothing about spades
...3N = spade cue
...4C = club cue, denies spade cue
...4D = diamond cue, denies S&C cues

3N = serious spade cue

4C = serious club cue, denies spade cue

4D = serious diamond cue, denies S & C cue

The following is mainly for my own edification now that I understand what is meant by "reversing the 3S and 3NT meanings"...

For the "Serious " case ( yours in the above post was for the "non-Serious" case ) :
After 3H:

3S! = Serious, says nothing about Spades
....3NT = Spade cue
....4C = Club cue, denies Spade Ctrl
....4D = Diam cue, denies Sp and Cl Ctrls

3NT! = non-serious Spade cue

4C = non-serious Club cue, denies Spade Ctrl

4D = non-serious Diam cue, denies Sp and Cl Ctrls
Don Stenmark
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( 1M-1NT!-3m-?? )." ....Justin Lall

" Did someone mention relays? " .... Zelandakh

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#19 User is offline   kenrexford 

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Posted 2012-April-06, 11:31

I probably discussed this a while ago, but here I go again, on the general topic of serious-vs-non-serious.

Make spades trump, so that no one gets into weird and confused discussions about 3 or 3NT and the like. The principles are the same.

Suppose also a very fast auction, like 1-P-2-P-3-P-3, where you do not get into the debate about prior bidding ideas and the like. Simple is good.

Assume also that one partner or the other is in fact serious on their own but need cards/controls to decide. That person is usually the ideal "captain," and information provided to that person is usually ideal, for two reasons. First, the less serious side has more unknowns and therefore has more trouble deciding things. Second, the more serious person has a lot to say and not much space to say it. So, ideally we want the person with the most knowledge getting the most additional information.

Using Non-Serious 3NT means that the person with the greater hand tends to make the descriptive calls, whereas the person with the weaker hand makes more ambiguous calls. Serious 3NT reverses this trend, and makes the weaker hand provide more information to his partner, the presumptive captain. For example, in the proposed auction, if Opener is weak, he bids an ambiguous non-serious 3NT, which does not help a captain strong Responder, whereas he could make a descriptive courtesy cue 4-bid and bid a waiting serious 3NT to hear what he needs to hear from partner, the ostensibly weaker hand.

Also, consider LTTC. A good rule is that the serious partner bids LTTC, whereas a non-serious partner bids a one-under as a true cue. If this is used, Serious 3NT means that the strong player makes a LTTC call after a two-under cue, which works well. Non-Serious means that the cue after a two-under call is true, which causes a problem because the serious person needed to know about the three-under control, not the one-under control. Hence, space is not maximized.

There are other reasons for this conclusion, but I concluded long ago that non-serious 3NT (or non-serious 3 if you want) suffers from the problem of bad tactics when slam is pursued at the gain of non-disclosure if slam is not ultimately pursued. Conversely, serious 3NT is the ideal structure for slam approaches but suffers from disclosure is slam is not actually pursued.

So, if your overall style is to maximize description at the potential cost of disclosure, play Serious 3NT (or serious 3 when hearts agreed, if you want). If your goal is to minimize unnecessary disclosure at the cost of some awkward slam sequences, play Non-Serious 3NT (3).

Now, as to whether to play 3 as the non-serious or serious (depending) call. This comes up in two sequences. First, consider the easy cases of this being the first possible cue. 1-2, 3-3, 3; or 1-2, 3-3. In those two sequences, the question is interesting. Consider the latter. If Responder's 3 is the artificial call and non-serious, this means that Responder only shows a fitting spade for Opener when serious; when Responder is non-serious Opener might be enabled to cue good spades when serious, then. If 3 is serious, Responder cues 3NT with a non-serious hand but a spade card; Opener cues good spades if Responder is serious. If 3NT is serious or non-serious, either way Responder shows a spade card if he has one but indicates seriousness if he lacks one.

Consider the prior sequence. Now the control is the issue, with Opener indicating control or not, serious or not with one of these, depending on the approach.

I cannot see anything wildly critical in all of this, except for the 1-2, 3-? sequence. In that sequence, keeping 3NT as the serious-or-non-serious call seems intuitiveky better because I want Responder telling about his spade holding more than Opener.

Because of this sequence and the need for consistency, I opt against serious or non-serious 3 and instead keep (serious) 3NT. But, the call is close.
"Gibberish in, gibberish out. A trial judge, three sets of lawyers, and now three appellate judges cannot agree on what this law means. And we ask police officers, prosecutors, defense lawyers, and citizens to enforce or abide by it? The legislature continues to write unreadable statutes. Gibberish should not be enforced as law."

-P.J. Painter.
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Posted 2012-April-06, 20:53

View Postkenrexford, on 2012-April-06, 11:31, said:


I cannot see anything wildly critical in all of this, except for the 1-2, 3-? sequence. In that sequence, keeping 3NT as the serious-or-non-serious call seems intuitively better because I want Responder telling about his spade holding more than Opener.

Because of this sequence and the need for consistency, I opt against serious or non-serious 3 and instead keep (serious) 3NT. But, the call is close.


So, for the sequence:
1 - 2
3 - 3! ( Responder shows a -card when he has it and says nothing about "Seriousness" )

.... you agree with Fred.
Don Stenmark
TWOferBRIDGE
"imo by far in bridge the least understood concept is how to bid over a jump-shift
( 1M-1NT!-3m-?? )." ....Justin Lall

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