[jtfanclub]

Match points RHO dealt, and opens a 2/1 1 diamond.

You are playing 1NT overcalls as 12-15. You pick up this hand:

---

Would you overcall 1NT, or pass?

I argue that overcalling 1NT means that you consider 1NT obstructive- you don't expect to make it if partner doesn't invite, you don't expect to make it if partner invites, you don't expect partner to make it if he bids game (or at least, you shouldn't). On the other hand, you've likely obstructed the opponent's bidding to the point that they'll not get to their best contract.

If you pass, you consider 1NT constructive: you don't want partner responding constructively and finding out that you have less than he imagined.

I don't think there's a right or wrong answer- I'm just curious to know how most people play it.

Thanks.

[Free]

Yes, ALWAYS! If you agree 12-15, then you have to make advantage of that, and bid whenever you can Btw, you might escape to 2♣ in case of doubles.

[luke warm]

12-15 is what i open 1nt, but there's a difference between opening and overcalling ... they presumeably have shared meaningful information in this case... i would overcall this only in balancing position

[pclayton]

Einstein said: "You cannot simultaneously prepare for, and prevent war" (or words to that effect....Source: bumper sticker on a '72 beetle seen in Missoula, Montana, 1984).

A 12-15 NT overcall cannot simultaneously be destructive AND constructive; and I would argue that it is neither. It gives the opponents a 'free shot'. By definition, you have length in righty's suit, so your chances of finding a playable spot at the TWO level are greatly diminished. And if partner has a hand that wants to invite game, the call does not enhance your chances; rather it 'wrong-sides' the contract (you almost ALWAYS want the strong hand on lead)

Matthew: If you are bored with a strong NT overcall, try overcall structure or Raptor.

[Flame]

You cant have this question at the table, you already decided it when you developed the system, so now you dont have a choice you have 12-15 bal with a stop and must bid 1nt.
After the board you can (and imo should) change your system.

[jtfanclub]

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You cant have this question at the table, you already decided it when you developed the system

I'm asking for people who have developed such a system, which way do they play it?

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After the board you can (and imo should) change your system.

To what? Or are you saying I should pull a Ron and change to MOSCITO or something?

[jtfanclub]

pclayton, on Nov 1 2004, 12:36 PM, said:

Matthew: If you are bored with a strong NT overcall, try overcall structure or Raptor.

I don't know what overcall structure is.

I like 12-15 NT overcalls across an unpassed hand. They're strong enough not to get punished often, and they help define the other overcalls. With 16-18 balanced I just X- if partner can't jump, I'll pass and take my chances. I'm sure I've had balanced 19+ counts when the opponents opened, but I can't seem to remember them.

[pclayton]

jtfanclub, on Nov 1 2004, 10:58 AM, said:

pclayton, on Nov 1 2004, 12:36 PM, said:

Matthew: If you are bored with a strong NT overcall, try overcall structure or Raptor.

I don't know what overcall structure is.

I like 12-15 NT overcalls across an unpassed hand. They're strong enough not to get punished often, and they help define the other overcalls. With 16-18 balanced I just X- if partner can't jump, I'll pass and take my chances. I'm sure I've had balanced 19+ counts when the opponents opened, but I can't seem to remember them.

If you've decided that the double should be the balanced 16-18 - good! You are almost there .

Here's a link: http://www.gg.caltec...em/foutnote.txt

Note - I DONT recommend their ideas for the 1 level overcall and the double-jump overcalls. The balance of the system is excellent.

[Flame]

jtfanclub, on Nov 1 2004, 01:52 PM, said:

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You cant have this question at the table, you already decided it when you developed the system

I'm asking for people who have developed such a system, which way do they play it?

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After the board you can (and imo should) change your system.

To what? Or are you saying I should pull a Ron and change to MOSCITO or something?

If the system is 12-15 then you must bid 1nt that very simple thats why i say there is no question, just like when you have 12 hcp and 6 card hearts you dont start thinking if you like to play 1h as a trasnfer to spade, or maybe you better play 2h as showing a minimum opening with unbalanced hand, those systems are good but your system tell you to open 1H and you do.
I never heard of anyone playing 1NT as 12-15, the normal is 15-18 , and there are those who play RAPTOR.

[jtfanclub]

Flame, on Nov 1 2004, 04:23 PM, said:

If the system is 12-15 then you must bid 1nt that very simple thats why i say there is no question, just like when you have 12 hcp and 6 card hearts you dont start thinking if you like to play 1h as a trasnfer to spade, or maybe you better play 2h as showing a minimum opening with unbalanced hand, those systems are good but your system tell you to open 1H and you do.

No...it's like playing 1C as 12-21, and deciding that a particular 12 point hand isn't worth opening. This hand has 12 hcp, but clearly isn't worth as much as an average 12 point hand.

I don't think 12-15 NT overcalls are uncommon when you also play them as your opening.

[the hog]

"I don't think 12-15 NT overcalls are uncommon when you also play them as your opening. "

Huh? Please lets play for money - lots of it!

[jtfanclub]

The_Hog, on Nov 1 2004, 06:17 PM, said:

"I don't think 12-15 NT overcalls are uncommon when you also play them as your opening. "

Huh? Please lets play for money - lots of it!

Be happy to, but you'll have to fly me to Australia.

Do you play 1NT openings as 12-15? And if so, what do you play your overcalls as?

[the hog]

12-14 NT opening
overcalls 15 1/2 -18 or Raptor 9-15 depending on with whom I am playing.

I like your 12-15 idea so much I am going to recommend it to all I know - especially to those in my rubber bridge group. (My pd and I are probably a bit too old fashioned to play such high tech gadgetry).

[pbleighton]

jt-

As to your specific question, if you are playing 12-15, and not 12+-15, then overcall. This is hardly the worst balanced 12 count you will be dealt.

As to the 12-15 1NT overcall:

I play 10-13 NT NV and 12-14 Vul, and love it (well, actually really love it NV and it's decent vul). I play 1NT overcall 15-18 standard, however.

The beauty of weak NT as opener is that is:
1) a reasonable, if somewhat flawed, constructive bid
2) a fairly effective and fairly safe preempt
3) very common

2 is really the key. As an overcall, 1NT is both less effective and less safe than as an opener, because the opponents have made an opening bid. I'm sure that you are right, that it has worked for you so far, but have you played it regularly against decent players who have bothered to put together a defense against it? I think you would get creamed eventually, especially at IMPs. Ron, in his tender way, obviously agrees

I think this could work NV at matchpoints, with a runout structure. Otherwise, I wouldn't touch it.

Peter (who loves unsound preempts)

[luke warm]

The_Hog, on Nov 2 2004, 01:39 AM, said:

I like your 12-15 idea so much I am going to recommend it to all I know - especially to those in my rubber bridge group. (My pd and I are probably a bit too old fashioned to play such high tech gadgetry).

heh heh

yeah, maybe a little too high tech for me also..

pbleighton said:

As an overcall, 1NT is both less effective and less safe than as an opener, because the opponents have made an opening bid.

that was my point... once the ops have exchanged info, no matter how little or how much that might be, the main advantage of the weak nt has been lost (the preemption effect)

frankly, that's the only reason i play mini or weak... but it's a good enough reason in my opinion that i don't want to even consider changing

[Flame]

jtfanclub, on Nov 1 2004, 05:51 PM, said:

Flame, on Nov 1 2004, 04:23 PM, said:

If the system is 12-15 then you must bid 1nt that very simple thats why i say there is no question, just like when you have 12 hcp and 6 card hearts you dont start thinking if you like to play 1h as a trasnfer to spade, or maybe you better play 2h as showing a minimum opening with unbalanced hand, those systems are good but your system tell you to open 1H and you do.

No...it's like playing 1C as 12-21, and deciding that a particular 12 point hand isn't worth opening. This hand has 12 hcp, but clearly isn't worth as much as an average 12 point hand.

I don't think 12-15 NT overcalls are uncommon when you also play them as your opening.

What can i tell you, those 12 are normal , but yes if yuo consider it as a weak 12 you can pass, but then this isnt a contractive obstructive question, just an evaluation question.

[Gerben47]

Bid it with this hand if you like. I am not ready for such high tech bids perhaps my rubber opponents are. I will stick to old-fashioned Polish NT overcall in the meantime.

[Chamaco]

Weak NT opener has many advantages, but one of them is to hinder the description of oppoents hands, when our pard is unpassed.

When pard is unpassed, opponents will have to take risks to show a minimum opener, especially if balanced: this is because the pard of weak Notrumper may be sitting for a double.

Also, even when overcalling a weak NT is safe, the hand often is not easy to describe.

Now let's turn to the case when we OVERCALL a weak NT.
Now things are reversed:

1- opener has started to describe the hand (whereas in the other case he had to overcall, soemtimes with weird sequences)
2- this time, it is our LHO who may be sitting for a very loud double

In other words, overcall 1NT many times will just give opps the "fielder's choice", exactly the opposite of what happens on many hands when we open weak NT with unpassed pard.

[jtfanclub]

Chamaco, on Nov 2 2004, 04:17 AM, said:

1- opener has started to describe the hand (whereas in the other case he had to overcall, soemtimes with weird sequences)
2- this time, it is our LHO who may be sitting for a very loud double

In other words, overcall 1NT many times will just give opps the "fielder's choice", exactly the opposite of what happens on many hands when we open weak NT with unpassed pard.

How did I end up arguing this? That does seem the norm here, though...you ask a question of "what do you do with this system" and the answer is "your system sucks", usually from people who've never actually tried it, played against it much, or studied it.

I don't question that 1NT overcalls are more dangerous than 1NT openings.

However, a couple of points...

1. On equal strength hands, which is the most likely case, the first side to bid 1NT is often the winner. It's not uncommon for both sides to be able to make 1NT, and that be the limit of the hand. This is especially true if I have length and strength in their suit.

2. Because 12-15 tends to be 'equal strength', which means that should we run we may very well make it. Even if my partner has few points but a long suit, we may make it. Doubling at the two level is dangerous for a number of reasons.

3. I find that it has good pre-emptive value over 1 of a minor (because outside of figeting responder has no way to show exactly 4 of one major but not the other). Over 1 of a major, they may also have no way of finding their 4-4 fit in the other major.

4. When you start playing against opponents who open with unbalanced 8 counts, you start finding ways to bid constructively. When my partner has a constructive hand, I've made it much easier to bid. More and more people are opening at the 1 level with those unbalanced 8s. If you like tossing in your hand and giving them a top when you and your partner each have a balanced 13 count, be my guest.

5. 15-18 NTs are more dangerous than 12-15. For one thing, you've told them they don't have game, so they aren't going to end up trying to figure out if -300/-500 is a top for them or not: you've told them that it is. Often running to an 8 card fit down 2 is a good board with 12-15, it isn't with 15-17. And 15-17 isn't anywhere near as safe as many people seem to think: 17 across 1 is a lousy 1NT, 12 across 6 isn't. The truth is, penalty X's come up a lot less often than people think over 12-15 1NT (or even 10-13NT), and they don't work as well as people think.

6. X works just fine with 15-18 balanced in the usual systems, because partner will jump with a good 8+. You aren't going to miss many games by doubling and then passing partner's nonjump bid.

I don't even know why I'm bothering. People who've never seen it played are going to go with the usual condescending crap. Some won't even bother to read this. I don't claim to be an expert (though the person teaching me it is), and I don't feel a real need to defend it. You like it, fine. You don't like it, even better. After all, maybe someday I'll have to play against you.

[Chamaco]

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2.  Because 12-15 tends to be 'equal strength', which means that should we run we may very well make it.  Even if my partner has few points but a long suit, we may make it.  Doubling at the two level is dangerous for a number of reasons. 
 

- why should your partner exactly the hand you need ?
If you have such a partner, I would be delighted to play some hands with him on BBO, since my pards usually tend to put down a "normal" dummy...

- doubling at the 2 level is as dangerous as a 1NT overcall: it is risky when opps have the balance of power and we have to scramble for a fit; this will occurr in both cases;
At least at the 1-level, though, if we double rather than overcalling 1NT we have a greater chance to stop at the 1 level (safer), whereas if we bid 1NT and we are doubled, there is no coming back :-)

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3.  I find that it has good pre-emptive value over 1 of a minor (because outside of figeting responder has no way to show exactly 4 of one major but not the other).  Over 1 of a major, they may also have no way of finding their 4-4 fit in the other major.

- it does have some preemptive power; however, the risk involved in preempts varies a lot according to different situations (amount of info exchanged by opps, having limited their hand or notl, vulnerability, seat, etc); opening 1NT (rather than overcalling) can be damaging, because neither of opps knows yet if his pard has points.

So overcalling after an opener assumes much more risks than OPENING weak NT.
This may be justified by "stealing" their major fit;
However, this advantage will be compensated negatively by the symmetric disadvantage: when we have a 4-4 major fit and pard is weakish, he will pass your weak NT and you'll lose your major fit as well.
(As they say "1NT buries fits, both ours and opps' ")

So you are taking a risk (big penalties) for a potential advantage which on percentage will be compensated by the same disadvantage.

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4.  When you start playing against opponents who open with unbalanced 8 counts, you start finding ways to bid constructively.  When  my partner has a constructive hand, I've made it much easier to bid.  More and more people are opening at the 1 level with those unbalanced 8s.  If you like tossing in your hand and giving them a top when you and your partner each have a balanced 13 count, be my guest.

I don't get it, sorry.
If both myself and my pard have a balanced 13 count, one of us will probably double, or balance with 1NT.
Of course you know that balancing with 1NT with a weak NT hand is usually not risky.

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5.  15-18 NTs are more dangerous than 12-15. 

You have to discriminate 1NT openers from 1NT overcalls.
And you have to consider whether 1NT is 2nd/3rd or 4th seat.
It does change A LOT.

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6.  X works just fine with 15-18 balanced in the usual systems, because partner will jump with a good 8+.  You aren't going to miss many games by doubling and then passing partner's nonjump bid. 

Sure, that's why I play Raptor :-)

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I don't even know why I'm bothering.  People who've never seen it played are going to go with the usual condescending crap. 

If you post your thoughts here I think you should be happy to hear different opinions from yours.
That's the reason why I like the BB Forum, I can hear some opinions diferent from those I would hear at the club.

When I hear that many people here think the opposite of what I think, I start wondering whether I may be wrong.
You may consider doing the same, if you like to.
Or to go on as you do now, up to you