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Follow ups after a penalty double of 1NT

#1 User is offline   Quartic 

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Posted 2012-March-11, 06:08

My partner and I play a penalty double of 1NT. What are our options for follow ups when the opponents try to escape? Should our doubles be penalty or takeout? Which bids should be forcing and which non-forcing?
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#2 User is offline   aguahombre 

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Posted 2012-March-11, 10:12

It makes a difference whether the double is of a weak NT, where game our way is still possible vs. double of a strong NT where there are only a few scraps remaining in the hands of the other two players.

When the double is of a strong NT, I can't imagine needing any new suit bid to be forcing or artificial ---whether the other guys are scrambling or not.
"Bidding Spades to show spades can work well." (Kenberg)
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#3 User is offline   Quartic 

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Posted 2012-March-11, 13:43

The vast majority of players where I live play a weak NT. Strong NTs aren't common enough for us to consider playing a different method against them.
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#4 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2012-March-11, 14:55

View PostQuartic, on 2012-March-11, 13:43, said:

The vast majority of players where I live play a weak NT. Strong NTs aren't common enough for us to consider playing a different method against them.


It is very common to play that the first double, by either player, is takeout, and subsequent doubles are for penalty. This works OK most of the time.
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#5 User is offline   Quartic 

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Posted 2012-March-11, 15:34

View PostVampyr, on 2012-March-11, 14:55, said:

It is very common to play that the first double, by either player, is takeout, and subsequent doubles are for penalty. This works OK most of the time.


What about our other calls? Should a new suit be forcing or non-forcing? What should pass show?
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#6 User is offline   FrancesHinden 

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Posted 2012-March-11, 16:12

Here is what we play. It's quite long, but it covers virtually everything.
The most important things are (i) to play takeout doubles in non-forcing auctions and (ii) to agree what things mean, even if the agreements aren't perfect.
In general, as is GBK, we are more keen to defend when they are vulnerable and we aren't, and more keen to bid game vul against not.
We prefer also to play double as t/o in forcing auctions; there are some good reasons for this but not everyone particularly likes that approach.

To start with, here are the principles that apply after 3rd hand makes a natural bid (at the 2-level or higher):

- Pass over 2C or 2D is forcing. [You don't have to play this: you can play everything else with passes non-forcing, just ignore some of the other stuff after a 2m call]
- Pass over 2H or higher is non-forcing
- Double from 4th hand of a 2-level bid is doubleton take-out, i.e. a hand that would have passed a penalty double from partner, could also be 3 low in the suit
- Double from 4th hand of a higher natural bid is pure take-out i.e. could be a singleton or void (could be a doubleton, but not assumed to be)
- If fourth hand passes over 2C or 2D, that is usually either a penalty double or a very weak 'scrambling' hand. Second seat now doubles on any hand that would have passed a penalty double; if 4th seat pulls that to step 1, that shows a very weak hand and is an attempt to escape (we'll come back to higher bids)
- If fourth hand passes over 2H or higher, second seat's double is for take-out but he is not compelled to act. That means that if 4th hand has a balanced 10-count with a good stop in their suit, he might be obliged to jump to 3NT if he doesn't want to pass and hope for a reopening double (just like after a weak two opening, you might have to bid NT rather than wait for partner's double.)
- Once we have doubled one suit for take-out, a subsequent double of a different suit is for penalties (because partner has make a t/o double, implying the other suits)

-An immediate bid by 4th hand over 2m is weak at the 2-level; higher bids are also weak in context and show unwillingness to defend.
- An immediate bid by 4th hand over 2M or higher is constructive (as pass is NF); 2NT+ is lebensohl with whatever agreements you usually play for lebensohl (or you can play Rubensohl if you usually would). The doubler can 'break' a lebensohl bid to show a distributional hand, that doesn't particularly show extras.
- If 4th hand makes a forcing pass, then pulls a double to something other than step 1, that shows a constructive distributional hand (that wasn't prepared to defend by making a t/o double)

If 3rd hand makes a two-suited bid but promises the suit bid (e.g. 2C = clubs + a red suit), treat it as natural.

If 3rd hand makes an artificial bid (e.g. Stayman, or a transfer) then
- 4th hand doubles the artificial bid to show values; this sets up a forcing pass with double take-out [you can play penalty doubles in forcing pass auctions if you prefer]
- 4th hand passes the artificial bid to deny the values to make a forcing pass.
- 4th hand bids are still lebensohl-esque

If 3rd hand passes forcing redouble (either to show a 1-suiter, or to play in 1NTxx)
- 4th hand bids at once with a very weak distributional hand; pass is values or balanced nothing. If they then bid 2C or 2D the agreements above apply.

If 3rd hand redoubles naturally (or passes a forced redouble), we assume they know what they are doing
- 4th hand runs with a distributional hand
- 2nd hand pulls unless he has it off in his own hand.

If 3rd hand passes, not forcing
- 4th hand can pull to 2 of a suit as a weak distributional hand (more likely to run with clubs than spades as the doubler might bid his own suit)
- 4th hand can jump to show a forcing distributional hand (or bid 2NT to show a game forcing 2-suiter)

The only changes we make after doubling a strong NT are
- pass is not forcing over 2m
- 1NT x P 2C is a weak scramble, on the assumption that the doubler has a strong balanced hand.
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#7 User is offline   Quartic 

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Posted 2012-March-11, 16:24

Thanks Frances, that's a lot of food for thought.
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#8 User is offline   WesleyC 

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Posted 2012-March-12, 20:40

Great post Frances! :D
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#9 User is offline   Poky 

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Posted 2012-March-13, 01:12

Negative doubles.
Cuebids = forcing.
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#10 User is offline   benlessard 

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Posted 2012-March-14, 18:45

Quote

If 3rd hand passes forcing redouble (either to show a 1-suiter, or to play in 1NTxx)
- 4th hand bids at once with a very weak distributional hand; pass is values or balanced nothing. If they then bid 2C or 2D the agreements above apply.


It should be the other way around. With shapes and some points its better to bid now before 3rd seat will show his suit. If youre very weak, 3rd seat will probably pass the XX and you will be able to pull out now.

What i think is best is

(1NT)--X--(P forcing)---???

pass = pts or bal garbage.
2C crap with clubs/2 suiter with clubs (0-2 pts)
2D decent suit some pts (3-7)
2H decent suit some pts (3-7)
2S decent suit some pts (3-7)

if the XX is passed.

2C = bal garbage
2D = weak with D
2H weak with H
2S weak with S
---------------------
If 3rd seat bid something

pass = bal garbage
X = DSIP at least 2/3 in their suit
rest are 2/3 suiters takeout.

In your method opener cannot make a penalty X over the weak bid of 4th hand because he doesnt know if 3 seat has value, while in my method after the XX (showing values he can my run out) but my method allow the doubler to bid a suit before the weak hand bid a suit, it also fight way better for partscoe when pts are roughly even.
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