[the_dude]

---

Ok, lets assume you want to be scientific and are also playing in a new-ish partnership. You bid 2♦ and your partner bids 2♥. Your options are now:

2♠ - sounds like some sort of natural-ish spade holding. We play an immediate 2♠ would have been natural and forcing
3♣ - sounds passable
3♦ - sounds like you are looking for a diamond stopper
3♠ - you didn't immediately splinter ... is this asking for a spade stopper? Would you ever do this if it wasn't discussed?

I guess you are stuck with 3♦ hoping for a 3♠ bid if he has a card. Seems like alot to hope for.

I knew our partnership wasn't on firm ground for finding a spade stopper, so I blasted ... Is there an "expert standard" agreement regarding unbid suits after the opponents have bid? I'm not looking for any obscure homemade conventions .. just "expert standard" thoughts about this auction.

Thanks!

[awm]

Bidding 3NT seems reasonable and a bit unlucky.

With that said, over 2♦ and 2♥ from partner, I'm not convinced that 2♠ should show spades. After all, we could've bid 2♠ initially with five spades, and we're not going to have a fit in spades with four spades after partner has bid two suits. It could be control showing (i.e. values in spades) but it seems weird for both 2♠ and 3♦ in this auction to be effectively "asking about a diamond card." Perhaps the rule of two unbid suits should apply (partner has bid both round suits, and opener's diamond bid is not always much of a suit) and 2♠/3♦ should both show a control in that suit. Then we could bid 2♦...3♦ and partner would know spades are a potential problem and perhaps get us to 5♣.

Another possible auction is to bid 2♦...2NT. This should be forcing to game (an initial 2NT would invite; the cue followed by anything but 3♣ should be forcing). Over this partner can bid 3♠ (really should be shortness/concern about spades; he cannot have a spade "suit" after bidding two other suits and 3♣ is a cleaner start to a cuebidding auction at this point).

[ggwhiz]

No rush, just start with 2♦ and get the 2♥ response. That doesn't set a game force yet (showed limit plus for clubs). Now a 3♦ bid sets the game force and partner will show a spade stop if they have it.

In similar auctions, the slower route to 3nt shows doubt, when you blast into it you mean it with a few exceptions, ie 5♣ is not an option.

[ArtK78]

Why not just bid 2♦ followed by 3♣? This clearly shows a strong club raise. If partner cannot act over this, then 3♣ is probably fine. If partner needs a diamond stop for 3NT, he can bid 3♦.

[aguahombre]

ArtK78, on 2012-February-23, 12:29, said:

Why not just bid 2♦ followed by 3♣? This clearly shows a strong club raise. If partner cannot act over this, then 3♣ is probably fine. If partner needs a diamond stop for 3NT, he can bid 3♦.

That would be a good plan if South doesn't want to insist on game, since 2D, then 3C is passable. This one is close, but I think I want to be in game...3NT or 5C opposite an overcall by MY partner.

Would probably go with Adam's nebulous 2S over 2H, then raise partner's 3C to 5.

BTW: 2D always has a club fit in my world.
ABTW: Blasting isn't always a bad thing, I just wouldn't on this hand.

This post has been edited by aguahombre: 2012-February-23, 12:58

[mikestar13]

A reasonable but unlucky blast in the context of a new partnership. Could have worked on a spade lead even without a spade stopper if North had 3 small spades, and there is no cosmic guarantee they lead spades. So 3NT makes whenever it's make-able and some of the time when it isn't. But I would try science on this one if we had appropriate agreements.

[Cthulhu D]

Blastologist is the best word. I'd try 2D as a good raise as well, it's got to be forcing, I actually have a good raise and partner might do something that helps me out.

[mikeh]

Lots of meat on these bones.

I don't like 3N. Our diamonds are paradoxically too long and too strong. This holding makes it very likely that LHO won't lead diamonds....his suit is weak and probably relatively short. This in turn increases the likelihood of a major suit, and (since we have 2 spades and 3 hearts) he'll lead spades slightly more often than hearts, altho either major could be a killer.

In addition, many players will stretch a little to bid 2♣ over a 1♦ opener, hence we need to hold back a little here, compared to say [1♠] 2♣ where overcaller is more likely to hold full values.

Finally, most good players will tend to raise 2N to 3N aggressively if they hold 6+ clubs, and, since our diamond suit isn't likely to be readily establishable, we probably need 6 clubs or a full opening hand to make game.

Thus, if I were to bid notrump immediately, it would be 2N.

The alternative is 2♦, at least in the posted methods. For what it may be worth, I think transfers are a better idea, but they don't 'solve' this hand.

Over 2♥. my spade holding scares me. What would 2♠ mean?

I think it ought to be natural, forcing for one round, and showing a 4 card holding.

We won't have 5+, since we bid 2♠ with that, not 2♦.

To those who respond that we don't need to check back for spades, my reply is that you should learn to appreciate the power of moysian major suit fits.

So I'd have to choose between 2N and 3♣.

The problem is that I think both of these calls are forcing! 3♣ more or less has to be.....how else do we establish a forcing club sequence?

And 2N....if we had an invitational hand, we'd have bid 2N earlier.

All of this brings me back to my original choice of 2N.

I may be being guilty of double dummy thinking, but in my view N should pull 2N to 3♣. S's hand is maximum for 2N, and so N should be expecting a touch less as an average hand. Assuming imps, safety is important and if we are not bidding game, we have to bid 3♣. It would be no surprise to us that EW have at least 9 spades. Even at mps, I think there is a great deal to be said for 3♣. Leaving aside the risk of going down, 3♣ might score 130 against 120.

[benlessard]

I like the 2D-2H-3D sequence. 3D is showing a D stop and ask for S stop, any hand with with a S stop would have bid 2S (asking for a D stop/half a stop). Partner is vul so i dont see myself stopping short of game.

[Phil]

I like the blast. For 3N to be wrong, partner has to be off a spade stop, they have to find the lead, and 5m cannot be demonstrably better.

[gnasher]

If 2♦ showed a club fit, 2♦-2♥;2NT is clearly forcing. It's almost never right to play in 2NT when we have found a suit fit. I don't see any reason to play it as game-forcing, though.

North would probably sign off in 3♣ over 2NT, so the full sequence might be:
2♦-2♥
2NT-3♣
3♥-5♣
Once South shows a diamond stop and secondary hearts, he's obviously lacking spade cards, so North stays out of 3NT.

Or, if North thinks he's too good for 3♣:
2♦-2♥
2NT-3♦
3♥-3NT
5♣
Here, North shows his spade weakness - if he had good spades, he would bid them; he's obviously worried about something, so he must have spade weakness.

[P_Marlowe]

3NT is ok, I guess I would go via 2D.

Over 2H, i would bid 3C, this is certainly passable, but the question is,
do you have enough to force to game? Opposite a hand slightly stronger than
min? I would say no, but ....

With kind regards
Marlowe

[S2000magic]

If you blast sometimes and use science sometimes, does that make you a Scientologist?

[FrancesHinden]

mikeh, on 2012-February-23, 18:43, said:

...
The alternative is 2♦, at least in the posted methods. For what it may be worth, I think transfers are a better idea, but they don't 'solve' this hand.

Over 2♥. my spade holding scares me. What would 2♠ mean?

I think it ought to be natural, forcing for one round, and showing a 4 card holding.

We won't have 5+, since we bid 2♠ with that, not 2♦.

To those who respond that we don't need to check back for spades, my reply is that you should learn to appreciate the power of moysian major suit fits.

So I'd have to choose between 2N and 3♣.

The problem is that I think both of these calls are forcing! 3♣ more or less has to be.....how else do we establish a forcing club sequence?

I'm confused by this. Why on earth would 3C be forcing?

2D showed a high card club raise using standard methods.
There's no reason why 2H from partner should show extra values.
What are you supposed to bid as advancer over 2H with a minimum hand if not 3C?

This is the equivalent of the auction

1H (1S) 2S* (P)
3C** (P) 3H

*good raise to 3H or better
** game try

...and saying that 3H 'must be forcing'

[Venom]

Not sure what is best bid. Can certainly understand argument for bashing 3NT.

RE: the meaning of 2S or 3D: agree with adam that when two suits are potentially open, bidding one shows stopper in that suit. When only one suit is unaccounted for, the bidding the suit, initially, looks for stopper.

The cue bid of 2D and partner's response was quite fortunate in terms of suggesting where opener's high cards (that justified his 1 diamond bid) potentially lay: i.e. in spades. That increases the chance of a spade attack in NT, methinks. This possibility seemingly increases if you play very aggressive 2 club overcalls of 1 diamond openings. Would you make the same 2 club overcall with xx, Kxx, xx, AKT9xx?

Be well, be safe

DHL aka: Double !