[AyunuS]

http://tinyurl.com/742t2oo

I came across an unusual hand where a lot of players had trouble bidding it very well. I tried to bid it the same way GIB would, since that often seems like a reasonably good way to do things with uncommon hands, but I wanted to know how an expert would bid this hand. I had 20 HCP and a void, which is worth 3 points, giving me 23 total points, which is enough to open 2C by GIB's system. I don't count a doubleton with a K as worth any extra or fewer. Partner responds 2S so of course I want to show my diamonds. Then partner jumps to Blackwood, which I didn't really like, since he could have bid 3S and I wouldn't pass, but that's what he did. I was worried we didn't really have an agreed upon trump yet, but I went with the last suit bid, which was my diamonds. So, I responded 6D to try to show an odd number of keycards with a void above the trump suit, which I don't know if my partner understood, but I was trying to dissuade him from bidding spades. He was bidding in amounts of time where he seemed confident, so I felt I could tell spades was really where he wanted to go. Then he puts it on 6S. Now here I don't respond like GIB because I know most people try to make this kind of bid to play, and after a long amount of thinking, I decided to pass, since he'd only bid that with really good spades and I should trust him, but I really wasn't sure what to do.

Also, an interesting puzzle for anyone interested is, can you find any way that making any grand slam is possible with these hands? And assume opponent's don't lead a diamond because then it's just all locked up. I don't think it's otherwise possible, unless south happens to drop a spade or diamond on the 4th round of clubs.

[nigel_k]

I agree with 2♣-2♠-3♦.

At this point, 4NT is wrong because East has no idea which suit or NT is best so needs to investigate further by bidding 3♠. A possible start would be:

2♣ 2♠
3♦ 3♠
3NT 4♣
4♦

All natural so far. At this point East is fairly sure that the correct denomination is either diamonds or NT and the correct level is either 6 or 7. If you use 5NT as 'pick a slam' East could do that and pass West's 6♦ (intending to convert to 6NT if West did not bid 6♦). Otherwise East could just blast 6NT.

On the actual hand it looks like 6NT is better than 6♦ but only if played by East. Depending on your standards for a positive response to 2♣, West may feel confident going past 3NT at their third turn but I wouldn't. Then East could maybe play 6NT.

One further point is that I wouldn't bother trying to show a void in response to key card, especially when the void is in partner's suit.

[AyunuS]

Ok, problem is it wasn't a usual partner or anything. We didn't have any agreements as to what stuff meant, so anything like 5NT would really just leave things up to guessing, and I didn't know which version of blackwood he wanted, so I worried that whatever I bid could mislead him. Also 6NT makes regardless of who is the declarer, since there's only 1 loss in diamonds and then the suit can be run, as long as they don't manage to win any tricks in spades, but they probably wouldn't lead spades since it was one of our suits.

I think

2♣ 2♠
3♦ 3♠
3NT 4♣
4♦

is a good start, but after that I have no idea. Probably 6NT is the best bet once this much information is known.

Edit: P.S.: I wouldn't have bid the 6♦ with a regular partner. I only did since I was worried in this case that I could really tell he was going to try to bid spades, but now that I think about it, I was wrong. If he knew we had all the keycards, then at least he would have a lot more safely been willing to bid NT.

[kenrexford]

Funny hand. En passant for making 6♠?

[AyunuS]

We failed 6S by 1. But on other peoples, people found out they had all the aces and just bid 7NT and failed it by 1. Very easy hand to make bad bids on.

[hrothgar]

I will probably get pilloried for this, however, I prefer either 1♦ or 5♦ to a 2♣ opening.
Holding a 7-4 pattern I normally open at the 4 level or the 5 level will almost any excuse. In this case, I prefer a 1♦ opening.

Why 1♦ rather than 2♣?

2♣ openings with two suited hands are highly problematic. The 2♣ opening really hurts your ability to show shape. Two suited hands with Diamonds and hearts are especially bad. Your auction is even more cramped than normal.

[kenrexford]

AyunuS, on 2012-February-22, 14:18, said:

We failed 6S by 1.

Yep. With a round suit lead, Declarer has to hope for J-10 tight. With a diamond lead, he can hope for K-J or K-10 tight (restricted choice applied) and the coup en passant, which would work.

[Cyberyeti]

Do the solid suit bids by responder and opener not get used where you are ?

The lack of a 2♣-3♠ response would tell me to bid 6N over 6♠.

I'd seriously consider showing a solid diamond suit with 2♣-2♠-4♦.

[mike777]

2c=2s
3d=3s
4d=6nt?!


1) If pard had solid d she would start with 4d over 2s.
2) sounds like pard does not have spades.
3) 4h over 4d would be rkc in d, so pard can figure out I dont have any d by my lack of 4h, rkc here.

My big worry is that the other table will bid and make 7nt via some squeeze that works.

[AyunuS]

Again, it was just with some random player, so attempting to make bids to show solid suits seem to not generally be understood by most players, so I don't like attempting to make those kinds of bids. No one on any table made 7NT, but on one table they got really lucky and made 7D, since the opps lead a diamond and then the rest was easy.

[Statto]

nigel_k, on 2012-February-22, 13:16, said:

One further point is that I wouldn't bother trying to show a void in response to key card, especially when the void is in partner's suit.

I'd go further. The jump bid showing a void is a good way to end up in an unmakeable slam. If there were some way it could be helpful for grand, I don't get it - it doesn't even show which suit the void is in. I don't know where the idea originated from but it rates on a par with spam email.

[bigbenvic]

hrothgar, on 2012-February-22, 14:25, said:

I will probably get pilloried for this, however, I prefer either 1♦ or 5♦ to a 2♣ opening.
Holding a 7-4 pattern I normally open at the 4 level or the 5 level will almost any excuse. In this case, I prefer a 1♦ opening.

Why 1♦ rather than 2♣?

2♣ openings with two suited hands are highly problematic. The 2♣ opening really hurts your ability to show shape. Two suited hands with Diamonds and hearts are especially bad. Your auction is even more cramped than normal.

I agree, was my first thought, why open a confusing 2♣. with a spade void you have little fears of it going swish.

1d 1s
2h 3c* (GF)
3d 3s
4d 4nt* (to play)
6nt

[mike777]

bigbenvic, on 2012-February-22, 21:50, said:

I agree, was my first thought, why open a confusing 2♣. with a spade void you have little fears of it going swish.

1d 1s
2h 3c* (GF)
3d 3s
4d 4nt* (to play)
6nt

Frankly I dont get any of this bidding....


2 loser hand you open 1d

7s spades you rebid 3c

not sure why with 7spades and a d void you think bidding 4nt to play is clear.

Frankly the whole auction feels double dummy.


2c=2s
3d=3s
4d seems very normal start.

you can debate the rest.

[Cyberyeti]

AyunuS, on 2012-February-22, 16:09, said:

Again, it was just with some random player, so attempting to make bids to show solid suits seem to not generally be understood by most players, so I don't like attempting to make those kinds of bids. No one on any table made 7NT, but on one table they got really lucky and made 7D, since the opps lead a diamond and then the rest was easy.

That's why I asked the question, these bids are "old style standard" in the UK, and I would expect to be understood in the absence of any agreement to the contrary.

I don't think any grand makes, but 7♣ requires the smallest misdefence, after ruffing a spade, a heart has to be discarded when you cash 3 diamonds or I think you're home.

[AyunuS]

You know, I didn't think about 7!C but it does make with a spade ruff, draw K!C, pass it to east with a heart, draw 3 clubs, the top 2 spades, the other hearts, and then the diamonds from there.

Also, yes I know there are standards but a lot of players you randomly play online with on BBO don't know them and there are a lot of noobies that make bids like a 3NT response to Stayman when the had a 4-card major. I just find it rather unlikely that most of them would know anything that advanced. Even if you think it's simple, it amazes me how many people mess up simpler bids so I always consider the possibility that they could mess up the more complicated ones.

[bigbenvic]

mike777, on 2012-February-22, 22:03, said:

Frankly I dont get any of this bidding....


2 loser hand you open 1d

7s spades you rebid 3c

not sure why with 7spades and a d void you think bidding 4nt to play is clear.

Frankly the whole auction feels double dummy.


2c=2s
3d=3s
4d seems very normal start.

you can debate the rest.

I open at the one level as it's very difficult to unravel these sort of hands after a 2♣ opening.

As the responder, the bid of 3♣ sets the auction to game force, and allows the space to describe more, 3♠ should now show 6+ but not a solid suit (I use the jump after the reverse to show a solid 6+ suit) when opener bids 4♦ showing the 7-4 and denying a stiff honour (i'd support spades with that) it then becomes a choice of spots. I agree that 4nt is a bit iffy, probably 4♠ is better (I've 7 too!) however it tells partner that I have 3 suits stopped and not support for a 7 card diamond suit! He had a reason for bypassing 3nt so I think it is a plausable bid.

I have no problem with your choice of auctions, if I open 2♣ I just have been burnt too many times by opening these type of hands 2♣. Swap the majors around and I can foresee 1d p p p as possible, then I grit my teeth and open 2♣

[Cyberyeti]

AyunuS, on 2012-February-23, 15:47, said:

You know, I didn't think about 7!C but it does make with a spade ruff, draw K!C, pass it to east with a heart, draw 3 clubs, the top 2 spades, the other hearts, and then the diamonds from there.

Except that you're an entry short to the hand with the clubs I think to draw trumps. What I saw was heart lead to Q, A♠, ♠ruff, K♣, ♦AKQ, if the Q is ruffed, you overruff and are home, but if he discards a heart you're beaten as he can ruff the third heart and you never get the discard on the fourth, and you have no way back to hand to draw trumps.

[AyunuS]

No, you're fine with my scheme on clubs since south has the J and only has 3, he'd have to drop it when you lead the Q and then the 10 would be good. There'd be no easy way you would know to do that without seeing the hands though.

[Cyberyeti]

AyunuS, on 2012-February-26, 02:54, said:

No, you're fine with my scheme on clubs since south has the J and only has 3, he'd have to drop it when you lead the Q and then the 10 would be good. There'd be no easy way you would know to do that without seeing the hands though.

Except that you already used the Q♥ to take the spade ruff, how do you get back to hand.