[blackshoe]

S2000magic, on 2012-February-19, 10:35, said:

If you can find a copy of Alfred Sheinwold's Five Weeks to Winning Bridge, buy it and study it. It offers an excellent analysis on natural bidding, as well as the play of the cards.

(Some people complain that it's out of date because it doesn't use 5-card majors as its foundation. While that's true, it will help you develop your skill and judgment better than most books, and it's fun to read. Furthermore, it does explain 5-card majors in the chapter on Modern Bidding Conventions (it was written in the early 1960s), and highly recommends them. What you lose from not having 5-card majors you more than gain back with the wealth of other knowledge you'll get.)

Heh. An outstanding idea. Must be, because I thought of it myself. It's available through Amazon and other places.

"Five Weeks" was the first bridge book I ever read. One short lesson every day for thirty-five days.

[Vampyr]

Lesh18, on 2012-February-19, 01:51, said:

Thank you very much indeed.

9) You have mentioned a couple of times that sometimes you need to know whether stick to rules and when to break them. Does it mean using convention and using natural bidding? If so, how can an opponent know then, whether my 2Clubs means a fairly strong hand 22+ HCP or it rather means a natural bidding of clubs: preferred trump and some confidence in power of the hand?

How in fact will partner know? Don't forget that while your bidding agreements must be disclosed to your opponents, the primary purpose of bidding is to communicate with your partner. So stick to whatever you have agreed for a 2♣ or any opening bid; do not play bids as 2-way unless you and partner have agreed to do this.

And Trinidad's approach to learning and using conventions is different to virtually every bridge teacher and new player in existence, and is also spot-on. Try very hard to find a partner who will go along with this approach; you will be glad you did.

[Lesh18]

12) Have you guys completed ACBL How to play Bridge teaching program? Would you recommend going through it a couple of times to gain some basic insight?

13) I have already asked about total points between two hands and possible level of the contract. You told me it is just misleading to count it this way and there are other factors to consider. But let`s say we play No Trump, so no ruffing is possible, there must be some guidelines like 21-22 total points should do 7 tricks and so on. You know, I have checked out some mini bridge lessons and there are those rules about combined points and tricks you need to score.

This guy is talking about:

21-22p = 7 tricks
23-25p = 8 tricks
26-28p = 9 tricks
29-31p = 10 tricks
32-34p = 11 tricks
35-37p = 12 tricks
38-40p = 13 tricks ("p" stands for points, those points are points of both opposite hands combined)

Do you think it ROUGHLY can be used as guidelines for a beginner to quickly learn how to assess the power of the hand? Like, if I have 13 points, I will know that my partner should have 8 points at least for us to make a 1-level contract. 8 points might be ace, king and long suit. Thanks

[blackshoe]

Back in Sheinwold's day, you "needed" 26 HCP for a NT game. These days you "need" 25, and Meckwell frequently bid (and make) 24 point games.

If you want a guideline, you should have about 23 HCP to be at the three level in a suit or at 2NT (and if you have 23 HCP and they are at the three level, you should probably double them). You should have about 25 HCP for game in NT or majors, about 28 for game in a minor, about 33 for small slam (because it means they can't have two aces) or 37 for a grand slam. But there are a lot of other factors to keep in mind. It is possible (though extremely unlikely) to make a grand slam with as few as (I think it was) seven points, with the right distribution. Small slams on 27 or even 24 points aren't that uncommon, nor are major suit games on 21 or so.

[mgoetze]

Lesh18, on 2012-February-19, 15:43, said:

12) Have you guys completed ACBL How to play Bridge teaching program? Would you recommend going through it a couple of times to gain some basic insight?

Yes, I can highly recommend Fred's Learn To Play Bridge program. (Written by Fred Gitelman, world-class player and founder of BBO).

[relknes]

Lesh18, on 2012-February-18, 22:53, said:

8) To me as a beginner it rather seems there is little scope for free action in bridge. Every piece of the game (to be played well) is pre-determined by rules (convention, bidding, playing tricks). So what bridge really is about as far as I am concerned - just to master bidding system and conventions a get a partner who also mastered the system - so you have the best chances regardless of the hand dealt. Am I wrong?

This is not true for a number of reasons.
First, as some have already mentioned, you have the flexability to bend the rules when your experience tells you that it is warrented (which often falls under the title of "upgrading" or "downgrading" your hand because of things like suit quality, shapeliness, controls, quacks, etc).
Second, there are often multiple bids that will describe your hand, and your experience will tell you which bid is more likely to help your partner make the correct decision, or lead to fewer complications later on, etc.
Some of these are prety cut and dry. For instance, most people would recognize that with a 5 card major and a 5 card minor, it is better to open the major (fewer rebid problems, more descriptive, more relevant to the likely final contract, etc)
Others are such complicated questions that even experts don't always agree. For instance, with a 5 card major and a balanced hand, is it better to open 1M or 1N? This requires a lot more experience, and the correct answer will depend on your system, the suit quality of your major, controls vs slow tricks... the list goes on.
So there is actually quite a bit of scope for "Free action" for players who have a good grasp of bidding, but most people seem to think that beginners are best off learning as few exceptions as possible in order to simplify the bidding. This is why some teachers will teach "always open 1M with a 5 card major and opening values" or "Always open 1N when you are in the point range and have a balanced hand". Chances are neither is correct 100% of the time, but the gains from simplicity are usually thought to outweigh the gains from flexability, at least until the player is advanced enough to make useful judgements.

[Cthulhu D]

Yeah, my observation would be that while it's super important to start out learning the 'rules' the next thing you learn is that the rules are flexible, murky and require judgement.

[Lesh18]

14) What does a "control" mean? Is it the same as a "stopper" - a high card, usually an ace that prevents opponents from taking successive tricks in that suit?

[S2000magic]

Lesh18, on 2012-February-19, 19:11, said:

14) What does a "control" mean? Is it the same as a "stopper" - a high card, usually an ace that prevents opponents from taking successive tricks in that suit?

Generally, an ace is counted at two controls, a king as one. It's not the same as a stopper.

[S2000magic]

blackshoe, on 2012-February-19, 15:58, said:

Back in Sheinwold's day, you "needed" 26 HCP for a NT game. These days you "need" 25, and Meckwell frequently bid (and make) 24 point games.

If you want a guideline, you should have about 23 HCP to be at the three level in a suit or at 2NT (and if you have 23 HCP and they are at the three level, you should probably double them). You should have about 25 HCP for game in NT or majors, about 28 for game in a minor, about 33 for small slam (because it means they can't have two aces) or 37 for a grand slam. But there are a lot of other factors to keep in mind. It is possible (though extremely unlikely) to make a grand slam with as few as (I think it was) seven points, with the right distribution. Small slams on 27 or even 24 points aren't that uncommon, nor are major suit games on 21 or so.

Back in Sheinwold's day, the general bridge-playing public was told that they needed 26 HCP for game in notrump. However, Kaplan and Sheinwold routinely bid notrump games with 24 and 25 HCP: a weak NT facing a weak NT. They were the Meckwell of their day.

[barmar]

Lesh18, on 2012-February-19, 01:51, said:

Thank you very much indeed.

9) You have mentioned a couple of times that sometimes you need to know whether stick to rules and when to break them. Does it mean using convention and using natural bidding? If so, how can an opponent know then, whether my 2Clubs means a fairly strong hand 22+ HCP or it rather means a natural bidding of clubs: preferred trump and some confidence in power of the hand? Or did you rather mean, that sometimes you cannot follow guidelines like counting cards and assessing opponents' bids, but rather use a common sense? (The latter seems more rational to me). Thanks

Someone else already pointed out that you can't change the meaning of a bid. If it's a convention, partner and opponents will expect the conventional meaning, so you can't use as a natural bid.

What we mean is that sometimes you may have to make judgement calls. For instance, in the auction 1♣ 1♥ 2♥, you were probably taught that 2♥ shows 4 hearts (because 1♥ only promises 4, and you normally don't raise unless you have an 8 card fit). But there are some hands where this may be the best bid, because all the other bids have problems. Learning when this is appropriate is part of your growth as a bridge player.

[S2000magic]

barmar, on 2012-February-19, 23:23, said:

For instance, in the auction 1♣ 1♥ 2♥, you were probably taught that 2♥ shows 4 hearts (because 1♥ only promises 4, and you normally don't raise unless you have an 8 card fit). But there are some hands where this may be the best bid with only 3 hearts, because all the other bids have (bigger) problems.

I believe that this is what you intended to emphasize.

[barmar]

In addition to the programs and books that have been recommended, if you're in North America I suggest you join the ACBL. This will give you a subscription to the Bridge Bulletin magazine, which has regular columns containing tips for beginners, intermediate, and advanced players. They address many of the nuances of the game that we've been discussing. If you're not in America, join your country's bridge league, I expect most of them have similar offerings.

Your questions are all good, but I think this setting is not the best way to help you understand what makes the game so interesting. You should just start playing, and in time you'll see examples of the things we're talking about. Check if any of your local clubs have games specifically for novices. Or play on BBO -- if you don't want to embarass yourself, play in the B/I Lounge or play with robots.

[Vampyr]

Lesh18, on 2012-February-19, 15:43, said:

Do you think it ROUGHLY can be used as guidelines for a beginner to quickly learn how to assess the power of the hand? Like, if I have 13 points, I will know that my partner should have 8 points at least for us to make a 1-level contract. 8 points might be ace, king and long suit. Thanks

It is not really necessary to try to remember point-count values for low-level contracts. The early rounds of uncontested bidding sequences are mainly aimed at discovering whether the partnership have enough values for game. And if, for instance, it turns out that the values are not there, you can stop bidding -- 2y + 1 scores the same as 3y =.

This holds true in rubber bridge too. It seems like you might want to get as big a partscore as possible, but you cannot use the same bids both to explore for game and to add another 30 to the partscore. Also you do not want to get to too high a level and go down instead of scoring some points below the line.

Finally, bidding games is in a way more important at rubber bridge than (especially matchpoint) duplicate. Yes, you are correct that you get several tries to convert a partscore, but you would much rather have been in game, if possible, for all of the contracts; also your opponents may score a game, wiping out your partscore. So using a bidding system aimed at reaching games (and there is really no other kind) makes sense in rubber bridge too.

EDIt: This last is redundant; it turns out it has been covered thoroughly in OP's other thread.

[P_Marlowe]

#1 Yes
#2 Most systems without add. agreemnts would do, base systems already have some conventions
intergrated, that are assumed to be necessary, e.g. Stayman.
#3 Chicago with Russian Scoring
The advantage is, that you have an outside source, that tells you, if the reached contract
is reasonable.
http://www.pagat.com...icago%20-%20rus
In casual games, if you dont have an experienced player in the round, the only criteria is,
did it make or not.
Chicago will tell you, that going down doubled is sometimes ok.
You need a scoring method, Bridge is only interesting with the scoring, same with Poker.
Playing Poker without Money is pointless.
#4 It is legal, up to a point, but my counter question would be - How do you develop common sense?
If you have no idea, how to make legal calls, what is possible, you will have a hard time, since
you are bound to reinvent the wheel.
You need also players, that stick with you in the wilderness, if a stranger comes in, you have to
teach him, your ideas.
If you want to play with common sense, stick with a base system, be conservative when adding new stuff.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[Trinidad]

Lesh18, on 2012-February-19, 19:11, said:

14) What does a "control" mean? Is it the same as a "stopper" - a high card, usually an ace that prevents opponents from taking successive tricks in that suit?

The term control is used for slam purposes. A control is a holding in a suit that will prevent the opponents from scoring fast tricks. This sounds a little cryptic. I will try to explain.

To be able to make a slam, you need to be able to make 12 tricks. This means that the opponents are not allowed to take more than 1. It is not a good idea to be in a slam if the opponents can start by cashing the ♣AK. In that case, you are missing a club control.
There are first and second round controls. A first round control is an ace or a void (in a trump contract): The opponents will not be able to take the first trick in the suit. A second round control is a king or a singleton (in a trump contract): The opponents will not be able to take the first two tricks in the suit. For a small slam, you need 12 tricks and first round control in three suits as well as second round control of the fourth suit.

The term stop or stopper is used to see whether our side would be able to play 3NT. A stop means that the opponents cannot run the suit. It is fine if they take the first trick in the suit, or the first two or three, but they cannot rattle of 5 tricks. Therefore, an ace is a single stop (you will get the lead once if the opponents are trying to remove your stop), but so are KQ, QJT and JT98. Additional cards may strengthen the stop: AQJ is a double stop. You also need to be aware that a stop can be positional: AQ is a double stop if you left hand opponent is on lead, but it may only be a single stop of your right hand opponent plays the suit.

Rik

[Vampyr]

Trinidad, on 2012-February-20, 08:29, said:

The term control is used for slam purposes. A control is a holding in a suit that will prevent the opponents from scoring fast tricks. This sounds a little cryptic. I will try to explain.

The explanation here is good; you must disregard the post above that claims that an ace is two controls and a king is one. This is a totally different concept used in specific bidding situations, none of which you want to be thinking about. It is a real shame that the word is the same.

[S2000magic]

Vampyr, on 2012-February-20, 08:37, said:

. . . you must disregard the post above that claims that an ace is two controls and a king is one . . . .

My error: I missed the context of the question. Sorry for sowing confusion.

Yes, for slam purposes a control is the ability to prevent the opponents from scoring tricks in a particular suit. A first-round control is an ace (or a void when another suit is trumps) and a second-round control is a king (or a singleton when another suit is trumps).

[RunemPard]

I find the best way to play when just starting is something like...

1♣ - 12-19 (4+C)
1♦ - 12-19 (4+D)
1♥ - 12-19 (4+H)
1♠ - 12-19 (4+S)
1N - 15-17 balanced
2♣ - 20+ unbalanced or 22+ balanced
2♦ - 6-11 (6+D)
2♥ - 6-11 (6+H)
2♠ - 6-11 (6+S)
2N - 20-21 balanced
3♣ - 6-11 (7+C) maybe 6+C
3♦ - 6-11 (7+D)
3♥ - 6-11 (7+H)
3♠ - 6-11 (7+S)
3N - 24-25 balanced

Very easy to learn...and IMO is what every player should start out with. You can use basic natural bids after 1NT, 2C, or 2NT if you wish.

If you wish to try some basic "gadgets"...you can use

1N->2C = Stayman 8+ HCP (asks for a 4c major)
1N->2D = transfer to ♥ atleast 5 hearts and any value of points...1NT bidder should always reply 2♥
1N->2H = transfer to ♠ atleast 5 spades and any value of points...1NT bidder should always reply 2♠
1N->2N = 8-9 invite to NT game

The same goes for 2NT except 3C is usually 4+ HCP and 3NT is game stop.

For 2C responses I suggest a simple 2♦ 0-7 HCP, 2♥/♠ to show 5 cards in major, and 2NT to show 8+ HCP balanced.
Keep it simple and always think of ways to improve.

You are also welcome to play with 5 card major 1 openings, but this is not required when learning.

Good luck!

Don

[RunemPard]

Thought I would also add something about responses...very basic ones to help you determine if you should try game.

1♥->1N 6-9(10) HCP 0-2 or 0-3 hearts depending on how many the open promises.
1♥->2♥ 6-9 HCP with either 3 or 4 hearts depending on how many the open promises.
1♥->3♥ 10-11 HCP with either 3 or 4 hearts depending on how many the open promises.
1♥->4♥ 12-14 HCP with either 3 or 4 hearts depending on how many the open promises.
1♥->1♠/2♣/2♦ I think you should play these as forcing for now...It is acceptable to bid a new suit even with a fit in the bid suit in hopes of finding a much better hand than the points show. I actually think this is good for any beginner to learn early. (2C/D over a major is a standard 2/1 bid usually promising at least 10 HCP).
1♥->2N 11-14 HCP forcing game in NT. As you learn the game more you can look into Jacoby 2NT over a major suit opening.

You can do the same for spades...however, with minors it is usually best to take it slow and try to find a NT or major fit before committing to a minor.

Most of all have fun and enjoy.