[scoob]

Scoring: IMP


You: 1♠ (3rd seat)
Partner: 2♠
Opps: quiet

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[whereagles]

3D. Pard will oblige to 4S with a max and Qxx or Axx in diams.

[helium]

3 clubs

[HeartA]

4♠, period. Don't want to reveal info to opps, and willing to take risk of going down.

[flytoox]

helium, on Oct 27 2004, 03:55 PM, said:

3 clubs

I like this tactical bid.

[pclayton]

4♠ - automatic; no one will believe 3♣ if you go on to 4 over 3 and it might get them a sac.

[HeartA]

Since bidding a side-suit at 3 level is a suit-helper bid, 3C is very bad. Partner will mis-estimate his hand (appreciate CQ or CK or even CA, devaluate DQ, DA or HK). This kind of psychic is not good in this occasion.

I would bid 3H without HQ.

[Free]

We WILL play game, so I'll make a tactical bid of 3♣. Opps will probably not lead ♣ anymore, which will help us to an extra trick.

3♦ is useless imo. The suit doesn't need any help.
3♥ is even worse. What do you want? Partner to have ♥K? Pfff...

4♠ is an alternative, but I like 3♣ better

[pclayton]

Jlall, on Oct 27 2004, 11:27 AM, said:

3H...game isnt cold opposite many normal 2S bids. will respect partners decision

Vul at IMPs I think you have to be there. This hand has 5 losers and good body.

Another thought I've had looking at this thread is the possibility of a 4-4 ♥ fit. I think the need for that is close to nil, since pard would need a very specific holding like Ax of clubs for it to pay off.

[inquiry]

Scoring: IMP

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One might imagine "the perfect hand" opposite this, something like the pair above. After all, in 2/1 the simple raise is "constructive. Even opposite the perfect hand - four-four heart fit, club ACE, both major kings, you STILL are 50-50 for slam. At imps, vul, you have to bid game, and to try for the perfect hand is not workth it. Sure, no doubt 6H makes on the hand with a diamond ace onside, but even opposite this hand, the odds for bidding six and four are identical, and so are the rewards. Bid six it makes, you gain 750, bid six, it goes down, you lose 750 (650 for five you could have made, and 100 for the undertrick). Save your energy, why explore a slam that if it is there, is a toss up on to bid it or not. Being vulnerable, you can't risk being short of game. What if your partner is 3-5-4-1 with diamond ace and both major kings? Playing ZAR he would have opened, so that hand is out the window, and even not playing zAR, 2♠ is a huge underbid.

Ben

[mike777]

3H very mild slam try, in hearts.

[LH2650]

First, you need an agreement on what a single raise means. My opinion is in line with several in "bid these hands" (3 topics ago), not Inquiry's. Some quick sim results: 4S is less than 50% when partner has 3 - 4 S and 5 - 7 HCP. 4H plays better than 4S when partner has 3 S and 4-5 H. Since 3H may get you to 4H, it seems best.

[Fluffy]

whereagles, on Oct 27 2004, 03:30 PM, said:

3D. Pard will oblige to 4S with a max and Qxx or Axx in diams.

Qxx is not a good holding opposite a natural suit, it isn´t bad also, just an 'average' one.

[whereagles]

That kinda depends on what holdings you normally make a trial bid on. Qxx is good opposite Axx, AKx, KJx, KTx, AJxx, and the actual Kx.

In any case 3D leaves it to pard to bid

1S 2S
3D 3H <--- no diam help, but some help in hearts
4S

[inquiry]

LH2650, on Oct 27 2004, 11:48 PM, said:

First, you need an agreement on what a single raise means. My opinion is in line with several in "bid these hands" (3 topics ago), not Inquiry's. Some quick sim results: 4S is less than 50% when partner has 3 - 4 S and 5 - 7 HCP. 4H plays better than 4S when partner has 3 S and 4-5 H. Since 3H may get you to 4H, it seems best.

You are correct that game CAN BE less than 50% if parnter has the "wrong hand" for his raise. But, and this is very important, you are vulnerable, and this is IMPs. Part of winning imp strategy is to bid vulnerable games even when thy are less than 50%. How much less than 50% is a matter of mathematics and strategy perhpas. A vulnerable game bonus is +500, so not bidding a game that can make on lucky breaks can cost 500 points, which translates to 11 imps. If you bid a game (4S) and go down one, when 3S was making, you lose 100 points for down one, and the 140 you would have made in 3S, for -240, which is 6 imps. So bidding a 50% game, for instances is a 11 to 6 winner. When you are right, you win 11 imps, when wrong, lose 6. What happens if it is only 40% chance of making?

40% x 11 = +4.4 imps
60% x 6 = +3.6 imps,

so bidding 40% games turns out to be a winner too. So IF your partner has the horrilble hand, you will be less than 50% chance. Now if you play drury, where you can expect your partner to have 5-7, you might consider the cautious approach, but even then under these condition I would just blast to game. Make this matchpoints, I would invite.

Now if you bid 3H with the idea of possibly playing exactly 4H instead of 4S, then by all means, go ahead. I can agree with that just fine. But if you bid 3H (or 3D, or 3C) as a game trial and are willing to stop in 3S, no, that is a mistake.

Ben

[han]

I would bid 4S.

If I would like to make a game try with this hand (which I don't), I'd bid 2NT, which I play as a general ask. Partner will bid 3S with an absolute minimum, 4S (or cuebid) with a hand that would accept any game try, and with an in-between hand, partner would bid a suit in which he has some honors (e.g. KJx). The idea is that partner bids a suit "in which he/she would not accept a short suit game try". True, I don't have a short suit, but I don't have a suit that needs help in particular, and I don't feel like telling the opponents about my hand. I'd bid 4S over anything except 3S.

[LH2650]

IMP odds for a vulnerable game are 10-6 (don't forget the part score bonus), assuming no one doubles when things go poorly. Since game is 20% when partner has the "bid these hands" holding (Kxx of trump, a singleton, and out), and partner accepts on many minimum hands, I still prefer the invitation.

[inquiry]

LH2650, on Oct 29 2004, 09:30 AM, said:

IMP odds for a vulnerable game are 10-6 (don't forget the part score bonus), assuming no one doubles when things go poorly. Since game is 20% when partner has the "bid these hands" holding (Kxx of trump, a singleton, and out), and partner accepts on many minimum hands, I still prefer the invitation.

Yes you are right, the odds aer 10 to 6, but most 2/1 players do not raise 1M to 2M on king-third, a singleton, and all out. I happen to bid that way (I sometimes directly raise on less!!), but that is because I use drury after all openings in a major regardless of seat. 40% game chance is all you need, and I can't imagine a natural invite in diamonds, clubs or hearts will allow your patner with a minium to make a wise decision. Remember, at this vul, he knows you would stretch to bid close games yourself, so he will not take you for this much in the first place. Of course, if he bids game opposite an invite you will make, but will you have enough nerve to pass a rejection of a game try after you bid 3♦ or 3♥ and he returns to 3♠?

This is why bridge is a partnership game... he knows that you know the vul and conditions, and that you will stretch (or should stretch) to bid close games at this vulnerability. Likewise, you will issue lighter game tries, for the same reason, you can't afford to miss game if he is sitting on a maximum. Since it is not good for both partners to stretch, if he issues lighter game tries, you will have to have normal accepts (both sides issue light tries and light accepts, is obviously a bad idea).

Theoretically, you could issue normal game tries and use light accepts under these vulnerability conditions. And I suspect you could agree that one of you always push the other bid normally, as both of these would prevent the double light game bids. I think, however, the fist effort should be light... this hand allows two reasons why. If you issue sound game tries and light accepts, you might miss games when the "acceptor" is maximum... so the bidding goes 1M-2M, and the 2M with very maximum hand never gets to show this as the auction dies. Likewise, hands like this one can end up in 3♠ as it would be a "sound game try" but even some light responder hands, might not carry on to game when it is cold. So I believe in the following rules when vul at imps. With a sound game try, simply bid game, not invite. With marginal hand (should I make game try or not?), make game try. Thus, when invited to bid game, have sound values to accept, because of this shift from matchpoint bidding or non-vul bidding rules.

Ben

[Flame]

Since 3c/3d/3h doesnt show what i have , i wont use them, i am surprise to see that ppl interprete trail bid differently then i do, i play them as long and weak , i show losers in the suit. holding Qxx opposite my trail bid isnt good. a sinlgton/void is best, Ax would be good too.
3 possible bids for me
3sp if this is a general inv
2nt and then showing short club
4sp