[mgoetze]

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Plan the auction.

[wank]

anything more than X and respecting p's decision is crazy. you've got way too many losers to be seriously considering slam.

[mcphee]

Double shows this hand. After that may the gods be with us.

[benlessard]

X and pass partner bid, but i dont think we are that far from slam. Partner is red and doubled 2H in direct seat. At imps add a little something (Q of D) and im bidding 5NT (PAS) for sure.

[Fluffy]

3 suiter vs 3 suiter will be almost mirror shape, too many working cards needed for slam

[TWO4BRIDGE]

mgoetze, on 2012-February-12, 04:50, said:

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Plan the auction.

5♠
.... You have a 6 LTC and partner doubled with at least a 7 LTC ( or lower ) ... = 24 - 13 = 11 tricks .

How does a DBL ( by Advancer ) show this hand ? If it went ( 2H ) - X - ( 4H ) - ?? then a DBL by you would show the Minors...." because if Advancer has spades, he just bids them " .

[whereagles]

So what? If pard bids clubs, you pull to diamonds to show D+S and a flexible hand, willing to go beyond 5S.

[Codo]

Here x would show the willingness to play 5 ♥ doubled. So which descission of partner is there to respect, he will quite often pass if he has nothing to add to his first statement?

I try 5 NT pick a slam and bid 6 Diamond after 6 Clubs. IS Axxx,x,AQx, Kxxxx too much to ask for?

And even if the slam has no play. They do not know it and we will defend 6 ♥ doubled quite often.

[cherdano]

Codo, on 2012-February-13, 03:42, said:

I try 5 NT pick a slam and bid 6 Diamond after 6 Clubs. IS Axxx,x,AQx, Kxxxx too much to ask for?

It is too much to ask for (sometimes partners have Jacks rather than aces and kings for a 2-level takeout double),
but why exactly do you want to play in slam with KQxx x Kxxxx ATx opposite this hand? In fact, given the 5♥ bid you should expect to go down at the 5-level.

[mikeh]

If we are bidding, we are clearly bidding 5N and pulling 6♣ to 6♦ to show the pointed suits (and presumably no more than 4 spades...with 5+ we wouldn't be giving partner a say in the choice of trumps).

The question is: is our hand strong enough?

Gonzalo made what I think is an extremely astute point: our stiff heart is bad news for slam. The auction screams that partner also has a stiff heart, and thus what is usually a source of strength.....ruffing values....has evaporated.

AJxx x AJxx KQxx. That's a great hand for him to hold, but a borderline slam.

AJxx x AQJx Qxxx. Another clear double, and now we don't have any play for slam and the 5-level is in jeopardy.

Meanwhile, we can assume they have 6 trump tricks and the question is how many ruffs are they taking? It is possible, on a good day, that they are close to mirrored, in which case we may be collecting 800.

Btw, if a good opp bids 5♥, it is extremely unlikely that he will later save. The idea of 5♥ is to make us guess, and then to assume we have guessed wrong. Making opps guess and then saving because you assume they have guessed right is not the path to winning bridge. If you think they can mkae slam, and that you have a good save....bid 6♥, not 5.

[JLOGIC]

I would force to slam vs most people, in my experience most opps are exploitable in that they think you make slam when they bid 5H.

I def disagree that a good opp will not bid 5H then save in 7 w/r, he may be trying to buy it in 5 doubled against people who will take the cash, or defend 5S, but once the opps bid a vul slam and they know the save is cheap it is tough not to.

[mgoetze]

Here's the hand as I played it (or, rather, rotated 180°)

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What do you think of East's 5♥ bid? It was obviously good here.

[mikeh]

mgoetze, on 2012-February-13, 16:11, said:

Here's the hand as I played it (or, rather, rotated 180°)

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What do you think of East's 5♥ bid? It was obviously good here.

Btw, maybe I missed the form of scoring?

The 5♥ carried with it a real risk of 800 which might be horrible at mps....I think at mps, I'd be content with 4♥, which takes away the cuebid and leaves both opps wondering if partner has stretched or has extras. The best case for EW is that S has a heavy 5m/4n bid and N has a heavy pass/5m call and they each pull back a little because they are under pressure at a game where plus scores are the main goal.

At imps, 800 rates to be lose 4 or 5, and on a good day we get a huge pickup. It is not a knock on the slam bidders to point out that they lose a double digit swing here....all those who bid slam knew that that might be happening.


So at imps, I like 5♥, at mps I don't, preferring 4♥.

[mgoetze]

mikeh, on 2012-February-13, 16:25, said:

Btw, maybe I missed the form of scoring?

Sorry, it was a 32-board team match.

[benlessard]

I think 5H is a small mistake. JT98 of S is too much defensive stuff. Often opps will be happy to collect an easy 500 rather than playing a 75% 5S or a 50% slam.

[dake50]

I assume Double is the only strong enough bid partner has.
Then Double here.
My partnership has 3 bids for 2-suiters and
3 bids for 1-suiters plus 3H Q-bid.
He chose none of them, so Double stands out.
And I don't have to Just-in-case my bid here.

[JLOGIC]

mgoetze, on 2012-February-13, 16:11, said:

Here's the hand as I played it (or, rather, rotated 180°)

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What do you think of East's 5♥ bid? It was obviously good here.

Meh, I was right that they always think you are cold for slam when they do this, but they were wrong

[aguahombre]

mikeh, on 2012-February-13, 11:09, said:

Btw, if a good opp bids 5♥, it is extremely unlikely that he will later save. The idea of 5♥ is to make us guess, and then to assume we have guessed wrong. Making opps guess and then saving because you assume they have guessed right is not the path to winning bridge. If you think they can mkae slam, and that you have a good save....bid 6♥, not 5.

JLOGIC, on 2012-February-13, 13:23, said:

I def disagree that a good opp will not bid 5H then save in 7 w/r, he may be trying to buy it in 5 doubled against people who will take the cash, or defend 5S, but once the opps bid a vul slam and they know the save is cheap it is tough not to.

Interesting that these two prominent players have different experiences about what good players will do in this situation. Perhaps they also have differing definitions of a good player.

I don't have their prominence, of course. But I have encountered this auction many times; and my experience is that less than good players might bid 5H, then assume we have guessed correctly and bid again.

The good players who bid 5H at these colors and at IMPS, truly have been putting us to the last guess with a mixed strategy and will remain silent thereafter. This 5H bidder got us.

[mikeh]

aguahombre, on 2012-February-14, 10:45, said:

Interesting that these two prominent players have different experiences about what good players will do in this situation. Perhaps they also have differing definitions of a good player.

I don't have their prominence, of course. But I have encountered this auction many times; and my experience is that less than good players might bid 5H, then assume we have guessed correctly and bid again.

The good players who bid 5H at these colors and at IMPS, truly have been putting us to the last guess with a mixed strategy and will remain silent thereafter. This 5H bidder got us.

Justin has a LOT more experience with truly good players. My only exposure is at world championships...I go to all the rosenblums, for example....but I don't play Nationals at all.....my last one was playing in Hawaii about 5-6 years ago. So if the question is 'what strategy do really good players adopt?'....go with Justin for sure. Indeed, one reason I come to these forums is to learn about this sort of issue. There has been a lot of change in what I think of as bridge philosophy over my time in bridge and it's easy to get marooned in a backwater if one doesn't play. One reason I post my reasoning in my answers is to learn, from the responses from players more active than I am, where I am out of step.

[aguahombre]

I was not disputing what either one of you have experienced. Maybe the top players do that against Justin in those events, these days. And, maybe they are right to assume when they put him to the test, he will have guessed right.

These same players would do better, when playing against me, if they don't make that assumption.