BBO Discussion Forums: Zar points for opening bids - BBO Discussion Forums

Jump to content

  • 3 Pages +
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

Zar points for opening bids terrible evaluation method

#41 User is offline   whereagles 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 14,900
  • Joined: 2004-May-11
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Portugal
  • Interests:Everything!

Posted 2004-October-27, 14:24

As I said, with hearts maybe not. With spades, and being able to play them at the 3-level, definitely.
0

#42 User is offline   inquiry 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Admin
  • Posts: 14,566
  • Joined: 2003-February-13
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Amelia Island, FL
  • Interests:Bridge, what else?

Posted 2004-October-27, 15:04

Sorry, I am traveling, and have not been able to be on line, much.

As for the two hands justin commented on that I didn't address. I didn't really feel the need to address each and every hand, as, I was simply trying to point out that adding up ZAR points is just the start point to figuring out what you would (should?) bid or not bid. The same is true of Goren points, for instance. Locatiion of honors, spot cards, etc are an important part of any "hand evaluation." This is well known, and many readers here are familiar with Kaplan and Rubens hand evaluation methods that adjust the familiar 4321 count on these grounds. Zar himself point this out over and over. Thus, I felt that most of the comments concerning ZAR points were over simplified in the sense that what justin was talking about as being missing devaluating honors, opening balanced hands with lots of hcp but not enough zar points) are all covered in Zar's excellent series of articles in bridge maginzines, on the web and yes, in this very forum. Zar is on of our occassional posters.

But since I was called out on the two hands I didnt' address, here goes....

void
Axxx
Axxx
xxxxx

I would pass. No big deal. But change it by reversing the black suits, that is give me five spades and a club void, I would open more often than not.

The second hand,

AK
Kxx
Jxx
xxxxx

I would open only in thrid seat, and perhpas not even then. Sure it is "26 points", but the ZAR point count is the first step only, and as lowerline excellently pointed out as it relates to this hand, and to the issues raised in the original post to begin with.

So I thought rather than work in the abstract, I would show some hand I opened iwth 10 hcp or less, this is only a very few of the many examples.
Scoring: IMP

I opened 1

Scoring: IMP

I opened 1

Scoring: IMP

I opened 1

Scoring: IMP

I opened 1


I suspect many will disagree with some of these opening bids, and perhpas a few with all four of them For the record, I will note none of these were third seat, and none were psyche's, light yes, psyche no. Just over 15% of my opening bids at the one level occur with 10 hcp or less (most frequently of these 10, but plenty of nine's and a few eight's). I do not as a rule open with 7hcp, as that is "illegal" in ACBL land. If you compare thie with ppilot, but use only his 1D-1H and 1S bids (he usually plays a strong club), he is at 17.5% of his opening bids are 10 hcp or less. This math for both ppilot and my opening bids, however include psyches and third seat "light openings".

It is easy enough to preform such statsticis on any player who plays regularly on on-line bridge sites. Most all of the top players (gold stars in the case of BBO) have reasonably high percentages of light opening bids. Perhaps not as high as ppilot, but high enough. Such statistics are not always useful, because some people play forcing pass system, at least with some partners, and others psyche at an incredible frequent rate, say once every 20 hands or so. There is also the tatical thrid seat openings, often on "dirt".
--Ben--

#43 User is offline   EricK 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 2,303
  • Joined: 2003-February-14
  • Location:England

Posted 2004-October-28, 10:04

I have just seen one of the young Hacketts (playing for England against Poland) open 1 as dealer game all with

A542 KJ43 JT874

Eric
0

#44 User is offline   inquiry 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Admin
  • Posts: 14,566
  • Joined: 2003-February-13
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Amelia Island, FL
  • Interests:Bridge, what else?

Posted 2004-October-28, 12:04

EricK, on Oct 28 2004, 12:04 PM, said:

I have just seen one of the young Hacketts (playing for England against Poland) open 1 as dealer game all with

A542 KJ43 JT874

Eric

I would not be surprised if half the field opens this hand... would be interesting test to see how "pro's" play. This is a Zar 26 count....but only 9 hcp. As you can imagine, I would have opened this hand....

Ben
--Ben--

#45 User is offline   inquiry 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Admin
  • Posts: 14,566
  • Joined: 2003-February-13
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Amelia Island, FL
  • Interests:Bridge, what else?

Posted 2004-October-28, 12:45

I found three tables where I could access the bidding for this hand. This was hand 13 of the 15th segment.

In France versus Indonesia both Rombaut (France) and Tobing passed with this hand

In Italy versus Argentina, Bocchi (maybe the worlds best player) passed while Madala (Arg) opened 1.

In England versus Hackett opened for england, Tuszynski passed for Poland.

Italy won 8 imps, defending 3NT when they passed and playing 3 when Madala opened.

Ben
--Ben--

#46 User is offline   whereagles 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 14,900
  • Joined: 2004-May-11
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Portugal
  • Interests:Everything!

Posted 2004-October-28, 14:54

Keep in mind the choices those players made were not made on an abstract note. It was in the context of a live match vs live opponents, possibly at a non-neutral state of the match :)
0

#47 User is offline   EricK 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 2,303
  • Joined: 2003-February-14
  • Location:England

Posted 2004-October-29, 01:18

whereagles, on Oct 28 2004, 08:54 PM, said:

Keep in mind the choices those players made were not made on an abstract note. It was in the context of a live match vs live opponents, possibly at a non-neutral state of the match :)

The state of the match was that England were a fair way in the lead.

The result of the bid was that the Polish declarer played opener for the Q (once opener's partner had turned up with the A and so went down in his contract.

Based on the commentary from England Coach David Burn, this was a normal Hackett opening.

I can't comment on the other games.

Eric
0

  • 3 Pages +
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

1 User(s) are reading this topic
0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users