[quiddity]

 JLOGIC, on 2012-January-10, 13:44, said:

And frequency is way less important than:

A) Is there another bid for this hand type?
B) How useful is it to show this hand type?

Weak jump shifts crushes fit jumps in those categories to me. Not to mention that it is more important to actually preempt the opponents when you have a weak hand and a long suit.

Playing devil's advocate (since I don't see much love for fit jumps in this thread):
1. Fit jumps tend to help with high-level decisions where more imps are at stake.
2. Re point A, when your side has a fit the opponents often have one too, and they are more likely to interfere with any multi-step method of showing the hand.
3. Re point B, it's not clear to me how useful it is to advertise your holding when the hand frequently belongs to the opponents. Of course it's nice to be able to preempt them but it has to be somewhat less nice now that partner has opened the bidding and RHO has been able to show a suit and some values.

[straube]

In competition with FSJs at 4m, there is Meckwell's approach. Not sure if I remember this right, and they may have changed their treatment but...

1M (overcall) 4C=slam try without control of their suit and 4D=slam try with control of their sit (these could be vice versa)

1H (bid showing or implying spades) 4C=universal slam try, 4D says I need help deciding what to do if they bid 4S
while 4H says I know what to do if they bid 4S.

[straube]

So how does the calculus change after 1M X? Now we're less likely to want to make a weak jump shift in a suit for which opponent has shown support and more likely to want to make a fit jump.

We play transfers and 2N is a LR+ and 3L are FSJs. Would it make sense to sacrifice a 1-under bid for a mixed raise? E.g. 1H dbl 3D would be mixed. Currently, we show a good raise with 2D and we have no mixed raise.

[JLOGIC]

I never learned calculus

[PrecisionL]

For those still interested in FIT JUMPS, see Dimiter Ziatanov's article on the Bridge World site:

http://www.bridgewor...ica&f=zlat.html

Warning, it is very complicated. Also his Universal Splinter is mentioned.

[bluecalm]

I wonder if in negative free bids context where you only have 3 fit support bids available (as jump to 3x is needed as strong, especially 3H) which raise selection is the best.
For example standard in Poland is to play:
1S - 2D - ???
2N = limit+ with support
3d = gf with support
3S = pre

But maybe it would be better to play:
2N = limit+ 3card support
3d = limit+ 4card support
3s = pre

Or maybe:
2N = limit+
3d = mixed
3S = pre

Thoughts on this ?

[Zelandakh]

 bluecalm, on 2012-January-14, 11:55, said:

Thoughts on this ?

I would take Option 2.

[hrothgar]

FWIW

1. MOSCITO includes fit showing jumps after a major suit openings

Jumps to 3m (and 3♥ after an opening that shows spades) explicitly shows 6+ cards in the bid suit with three card support for opener's major.
The decision to show this hand type was made based on a few criteria including

(a) The desire that 2/1s deny support for opener's major
(b) Experience that raising to 2M with this hand type often lead to a suboptimal contract

There are other possible uses for these bids (I still toy around with using 3♣ to show 5-5 in the minors). However, I am relatively happy with the fit jumps both in theory and in practice.

2. Playing standard system, I like fit jumps in competitive auctions and by a passed hand. However, I prefer other treatments in uncontested auctions opposite a first/second seat opener.

[akhare]

 hrothgar, on 2012-January-16, 08:08, said:

FWIW

2. Playing standard system, I like fit jumps in competitive auctions and by a passed hand. However, I prefer other treatments in uncontested auctions opposite a first/second seat opener.

Can you please post details of your preferred treatments in a standard system?

[hrothgar]

 akhare, on 2012-January-16, 10:31, said:

Can you please post details of your preferred treatments in a standard system?

If I am playing a standard system, I pretty much play whatever partner wants

If left to my own devices in a 2/1 GF context

Over 1m

1m - 2m = limit raise+
2M = Soloway Jump Shifts
2N = 11-12
1m - 3m = preempt
1♦ - 3♣ = natural, invite
1♣ - 3♦ = Splinter

Over 1♥

1♥ - 2♥ = constructive
1♥ - 2♠ = Jacoby
1♥ - 3♣ = Constructive, 4 card support
1♥ - 3♦ = Limit, 4 card support
1♥ - 3♥ = preemptive

Over 1♠

Same as before, just up a step

[straube]

I'd like to know what awm has settled on. Also looking for comment on (what I think is) Justin's treatment in comp...

1H (1S)
.....2H-raise
.....2S-LR, 3 trump
.....2N-LR, 4 trump
.....3C-wjs
.....3D-mixed raise
.....3H-weak raise

1H (2C)
.....2H-raise
.....2N-LR, 4 trump
.....3C-LR, 3 trump
.....3D-mixed raise
.....3H-weak raise
.....3S-wjs

1H (2D)
.....2H-raise
.....2N-LR, 3+ trump
.....3D-mixed raise
.....3H-weak raise
.....3S-wjs

1S (2C)
.....2S-raise
.....2N-LR, 4 trump
.....3C-LR, 3 trump
.....3D-wjs
.....3H-mixed raise
.....3S-weak raise

1S (2D)
.....2S-raise
.....2N-LR, 4 trump
.....3D-LR, 3 trump
.....3H-mixed raise
.....3S-weak raise

1S (2H)
.....2S-raise
.....2N-LR, 3+ trump
.....3H-mixed raise
.....3S-weak raise

then using 4m as FSJs/splinters or Meckwell

[mycroft]

Ah, but hrothgar, in MOSCITO, your fit jumps are designed to play in the minor on the 6-2 in preference to the major on the 4-3 - the unstated part of your 1b) Not exactly the same thing as the standard problem, as you say.

[hrothgar]

 mycroft, on 2012-January-16, 12:24, said:

Ah, but hrothgar, in MOSCITO, your fit jumps are designed to play in the minor on the 6-2 in preference to the major on the 4-3 - the unstated part of your 1b) Not exactly the same thing as the standard problem, as you say.

Agree completely... (However, it still seemed worth a quick response)

[nigel_k]

2NT should be the 4 card raise but need not be full limit raise values, e.g. if it goes 1♥-2♣, you could bid 2NT on xxx KJxx Axxx xx. This hand is hard to bid otherwise and there is room for opener to make a further try. If they compete, it's more important for opener to know responder's ODR than their exact high card strength. With a more defensive hand such as Jxx Axxx xxxx Kx, I would just bid 2♥.

[straube]

 nigel_k, on 2012-January-16, 12:46, said:

2NT should be the 4 card raise but need not be full limit raise values, e.g. if it goes 1♥-2♣, you could bid 2NT on xxx KJxx Axxx xx. This hand is hard to bid otherwise and there is room for opener to make a further try. If they compete, it's more important for opener to know responder's ODR than their exact high card strength. With a more defensive hand such as Jxx Axxx xxxx Kx, I would just bid 2♥.

I like having a mixed raise available. I'd rather separate that kind of raise than separate limit raises with 3 or 4 trump. Also wary of using 2N as mixed raise or better. Mixed raises are pretty common and it's nice to jack the bidding up (as Justin's structure does) to 3M-1.

Mansfield used to play 1M (2L) 3M was a mixed raise and he didn't even have a weak double raise (I guess those hands passed or bid 2M or 4M).

[han]

I also stopped playing support jumps in many auctions. Our current agreement is that when no other agreement is made, a jump into a new suit is weak if the new suit is higher ranking, and support if the new suit is lower ranking. However, we do have agreements about most early jumps, and often they are neither weak nor support.

After a simple overcall we play that if the cheapest bid in a new suit is at the 2-level, then a jump in this suit shows about 7-9 HCP and a good 6-card suit. We do often switch the two unbid suits but even if we can transfer to a major we play that this transfer shows 10+ points, so we use the jumps for weaker hands.

After 1M - Dbl we play that 3M is weak, 3M-1 is mixed, but for other jumps the default rule does apply: other jumps to lower ranking suits are support and to higher ranking suits are weak. For example 1H - (Dbl) - 2S is weak, while 3C is support.

The support jumps that I find most useful are those to 4m when our suits is hearts. For example 1S - 2H - 2S - 4m is a very useful support jump auction in my experience.