[kgr]

Some questions about control bidding:
1) If you have established a fit on the 2-level after bidding reverse, do you plays controls starting at 3C or do you think it is better to only bids controls from 3S and bid natural under it?
2) Do you control-bid a Q in partner 5c suit?

Example hand:

MP's

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T-Walsh sequence:
2S is setting the S-fit and GF. South showed 4cS and 5+cD.
- Do you bid controls after that (3C because 3D would deny a D-control) OR do you prefer to bid natural (3D to give extra length...and 3S would then show slam interest without extra length).
- If you start with 3C control: do you think North should bid 3D to show control in D?
- In the example: Do you agree with 4S bid of North? (3NT Non-serious was available)
(Diamonds were 2-2 and 4S was not a good result)

[cherdano]

1. Bidding below 3 of the agreed major is always bidding out shape for me. Cuebidding 1st/2nd round controls indiscriminately works much better if at least one of you knows his partner's shape.
2. I wouldn't cuebid ♦Q on this auction.

You should agree a way for opener to immediately show a minimum for slam-purposes on this auction, this is more important than cuebidding so early.

[EricK]

What would 3♠ instead of 2♠ mean? What would 2NT instead of 3♣ mean? In a GF sequence, one or other player should have some way of giving their slam suitability early on. Maybe instead of a non-serious 3NT you could play non-serious 2NT in this sort of sequence.

[petterb]

Why do you want to bid a 30% slam?

[Fluffy]

2 suiters should pattern out below 3M on hands like this, but balanced hands are ok showing just some strenght/features.

So IMO south shoul rather bid 3♦, althou 3♣ pinpoints heart shortness so is also fine, and perhaps better.

north should never cuebid a king on partner´s shortness, but even if he didn´t know what is going on, below the 3♠ level 3♥ should show some strenght or source, something like KJ10x or KQ10, something where you cover 3 card holdings well and will produce discards opposite Hx. IMO north should bid 3♦ to show help there, but not a control.

[gszes]

If your p 4s bid was an attempt to show a minimum or worse then whatever
you did prior to that was fine. Knowing you are at least 54 the !H!C kings
rate to have significant waste in an otherwise minimum hand.

Bidding is a game of % somedays poor slams come home like this one
I would not tweak a bidding system because you get a poor result on
a well bid hand. Look for holes when your bidding LOOKS bad.
You did not want to be in slam after seeing the combined hand right???

[kgr]

Thanks all for the answers.
Some points as reaction to the answers;
- I agree that the slam is not good, but hands were giving as example for my question.
- It seems that everyone prefers to bid out shape on 3-level iso starting cue-bids. I'm not convinced if it is best. Need to discuss this with my partner.
- - In the example bidding 2NT (iso 3C) could be used to give a balanced hand with slam-interest. And then cue-bids can start with 3C if unbalanced.
- - Starting with cue-bids on 3-level has the advantage that D-cue can be skipped on 3-level, but can be given on 4-level with Qx(x).
- - Not sure if it is important to bid out shape when partner has limited hand after bidding 1NT. It is more important to get info from him then to give info? ...Could be more important to bid shape if both hands are still unlimited.
- About question what 3S iso 2S by opener would be: IMO Opener always should bid 2S with 4cS. He already limited his hand with 1NT and should not take away a level from unlimited responder.
Edit: And about last post that our bidding was ok: I think that Opener should bid 3NT iso 4S because of the D Queen.

[bluecalm]

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Bidding below 3 of the agreed major is always bidding out shape for me. Cuebidding 1st/2nd round controls indiscriminately works much better if at least one of you knows his partner's shape.

+1. If you are going to use 2 levels of bidding for controls just introduce control ask or something which will be much more economic. Here natural after 2S would be 3♦ = 6-4, at least slight SI then 3♠ = not a good hand in context and then responder could decide if he still wants to invite a slam with cuebid 4♣ or not.

Quote

Not sure if it is important to bid out shape when partner has limited hand after bidding 1NT. It is more important to get info from him then to give info? ...Could be more important to bid shape if both hands are still unlimited.

As general bidding principle it's very important to bid your shape opposite balanced hand and let balanced hand react depending no honor location.

Quote

About question what 3S iso 2S by opener would be: IMO Opener always should bid 2S with 4cS. He already limited his hand with 1NT and should not take away a level from unlimited responder.

+1. Always 2S with 4♠ for sure.