[rhm]

2NT heart fit, invitational or better

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This happened yesterday in an IMPs pairs game.
5♠ went down one, while 5♥ would be down at least 3 and could be down 5
How would you assign the blame?

Rainer Herrmann

[twoshy]

Hard to believe this is an A/E problem when both East and South were on crack.

[Fluffy]

south gets the trophy for the worst bid

[ArtK78]

The criticism of South's 2♦ bid is extremely harsh. He chose to bid his AKJxx suit (which makes a lot of sense for lead direction purposes should EW wind up in spades or notrump by West) as opposed to showing both minors or passing. How is this such a terrible idea?

The 5♥ bid by East was certainly from another planet.

Is South really supposed to hit 5♥? He doesn't know that North actually has tricks on this auction. For all South knows, North could have KQJTxxxx of spades and out, and 5♥ is cold.

Similarly, North has no idea who is making what. It seems normal to take out insurance in 5♠.

The only player who made a clear error was East. And he came out a winner.

[billw55]

 ArtK78, on 2011-November-28, 06:43, said:

The criticism of South's 2♦ bid is extremely harsh. He chose to bid his AKJxx suit (which makes a lot of sense for lead direction purposes should EW wind up in spades or notrump by West) as opposed to showing both minors or passing. How is this such a terrible idea?

The 5♥ bid by East was certainly from another planet.

Is South really supposed to hit 5♥? He doesn't know that North actually has tricks on this auction. For all South knows, North could have KQJTxxxx of spades and out, and 5♥ is cold.

Similarly, North has no idea who is making what. It seems normal to take out insurance in 5♠.

The only player who made a clear error was East. And he came out a winner.

Most of my partners will expect more honor values for a 2-level overcall, even nonvul. So I disagree with 2♦. But I do agree that 5♥ is worse.

[dake50]

South didn't double 5H on DAK and S-single?
Massive defense even given 2D was
a weak lead-director.

[aguahombre]

 ArtK78, on 2011-November-28, 06:43, said:

The criticism of South's 2♦ bid is extremely harsh.

And accurate. A lead director in case hearts aren't trump? At the risk of CHO thinking we have a 2D overcall, as well? North's 5♠ was certainly influenced by this overcall. Otherwise he would have still bid 4S/the (inv+?) response by West, and let the opponents screw up thereafter.

[han]

I like 2D.

[pooltuna]

 han, on 2011-November-28, 10:46, said:

I like 2D.

So you prefer to mastermind rather than actually tell your partner what is in your hand?

[aguahombre]

 pooltuna, on 2011-November-28, 11:31, said:

So you prefer to mastermind rather than actually tell your partner what is in your hand?

I don't think "mastermind" is quite right to describe the 2D overcall; but I do think NOT bidding 2D would leave us better placed most of the time.

And for this hand, it would leave us better placed to double 5H after:

(1H) p (**) 4S
(5H ?

**=whatever the limit raise with 4 trumps would have been.

Now, we would find ourselves with an undisclosed AK and a stiff in partner's suit, nice for a double.

[gnasher]

I like 3♦.

[daveharty]

 rhm, on 2011-November-28, 04:47, said:

How would you assign the blame?

31% to South for the 2D overcall. 23% to North for the 5S bid (mitigated somewhat by the fact that North surely thought there was more extreme distribution at the table with everyone else showing values). 42% to East for the suicidal 5H bid--justice is never served. 16% to Obama, because isn't everything his fault? And 8% to Nicholas Cage, who hasn't made a decent movie in, like, forever.

West is blame-free.

[gszes]

 rhm, on 2011-November-28, 04:47, said:

2NT heart fit, invitational or better

---

This happened yesterday in an IMPs pairs game.
5♠ went down one, while 5♥ would be down at least 3 and could be down 5
How would you assign the blame?

Rainer Herrmann

the 2d overcall indeed has a "small" chance of hitting a homerun if
LHO plays the contract. There is also the chance it hits a homerun
in the bidding. The downsides of 2d are:

1. Leaves a ton more space for opps to bid
2. Only tells p half of my distribution story. Two chances of hitting
a homerun in the bidding are better than 1.
3. 2d usually shows a stronger (ie defensive trick taking ability) hand than a 2n bid
4. P has every reason to suspect we are a more on the balanced side
than we are and this can have a huge influence on their decision making.

I would choose 2n for a number of reasons not shown above.

1. I have a couple of quick defensive tricks which are more of a pleasant surprise.
2. This might be my only chance to describe my hand at a realtively low level so I go for it.
3. I can sit back relax and enjoy whatever p decides.
4. Promising 1 trick (2n bid) vs almost 3 tricks (2d overcall) can lead to much better
cooperative bidding at high levels.

Opposite an independent suit (in a hand of unknown power) I play an x at 5 level as showing
1 more defensive trick than I have promised in the bidding. On this occassion I can now
x 5h assuming 1h 2n 4h 4s 5h and p will be happpy to leave it in. I also use this only in
siturations that are not covered by forcing pass rules.

[phil_20686]

One problem no one has discussed yet is that north clearly thought this should be a FP situation. Not sure about you guys, but when partner has made a 2/1 overcall and I have leapt to game in a different suit that creates a FP at the 6 level. It just seems super obvious that once south has chosen to overcall 2d he has to commit to a 5 level FP. He should obviously dble 5h.

I honestly think south's pass of 5H is a clearer error than his 2d bid. Obviously 2d can be a disaster, not least when partner thinks you have more defensive strength and elects to dble something. However it does have a definite up side, and with a side 5 card suit south will not unlucky if north decides to sacrifice.

[mikeh]

 phil_20686, on 2011-November-28, 18:10, said:

One problem no one has discussed yet is that north clearly thought this should be a FP situation. Not sure about you guys, but when partner has made a 2/1 overcall and I have leapt to game in a different suit that creates a FP at the 6 level. It just seems super obvious that once south has chosen to overcall 2d he has to commit to a 5 level FP. He should obviously dble 5h.

I honestly think south's pass of 5H is a clearer error than his 2d bid. Obviously 2d can be a disaster, not least when partner thinks you have more defensive strength and elects to dble something. However it does have a definite up side, and with a side 5 card suit south will not unlucky if north decides to sacrifice.

I suspect that the reason no one has yet discussed fp is that no-one, until you posted, thought that 4♠ could possibly be seen as creating such a force. As someone earlier posted, N might well hold something like KQJ10xxxx and out. I mean, what would you bid with 8=1=2=2 shape, a good suit and zero defence? We'd all bid 4♠ without thinking anything of it.

Personally, I think N acted entirely appropriately at every turn. If the opps have the 10+ hearts they suggest on the auction, and S has a normal 2♦ call, this could be a double game swing and even if 5♠ fails, there has to be some chance that 5♥ makes. It sure sounds like everyone is bidding on shape....it turns out that E and S were bidding on a different planet instead.

Since 4♠ can't logically establish a fp, a double by S would be speculative....not to mention that sometimes the reason for the 4♠ call was a diamond fit in addition to long spades.

[neilkaz]

Hmm..one player overcalls 2♦ with AKJxx and NOTHING else and we have to ask whose blame is it ?

[quiddity]

I don't see how South's overcall mattered. If anything it gave NS a chance to go right, since it allowed North to consider doubling 5♥ to show that he expected to make 4♠ and that he has some defense and no diamond fit. Not saying that double would be the right bid though, he does have a solid 8-card suit..

[gnasher]

I find it hard to blame anyone. Can't we just congratulate East instead?

[shyams]

 gnasher, on 2011-November-29, 04:25, said:

I find it hard to blame anyone. Can't we just congratulate East instead?

Agree with gnasher.

An aisde: Would a dbl by North suggest "I want to sacrifice if you (South) have no defensive value"?

[xxhong]

I probably double 2NT to show a good hand with defense with north's hand, because your plan is always to bid 4S over 3H or 4H. A direct 4S should show a very offensive oriented hand. I think the most important thing is still to demonstrate power first, then later the shape. This is a good problem, which also indicates that a "bad" 5H over a wide 4S can sometimes win you a lot of IMPs. (of course, sometimes, it can cost you a lot of IMPs.)

 rhm, on 2011-November-28, 04:47, said:

2NT heart fit, invitational or better

---

This happened yesterday in an IMPs pairs game.
5♠ went down one, while 5♥ would be down at least 3 and could be down 5
How would you assign the blame?

Rainer Herrmann