[jtfanclub]

I don't like the enormous range of overcalls....I think it makes for too many problems in finding game.

I thinking of proposing that this auctions:

(1♥) X (2♥) P
(P) 2♠

Should only require a total of 16 points in HCP+shortness in their suit, not 16 hcp.

An example hand would be:

AQJT8
K5
AJ32
42

Another would be:
AJT87
5
AQ52
KT7

A third would be:
AJT87
Void
QJ52
KJT7

All of these would evauate above the 16HCP threshold if partner had responded 1♠, which is the requirement.

The point is, if I'm going to overcall 1♠ over 1♥ with a nine point 4-5-2-2 or 5-4-2-2, it's going to be very hard for partner to evaluate how far to compete when they bid a minor. If he doesn't have to worry that I have a hand like the ones above, then it's much easier for him to evaluate his own hand and bid appropriately.

So tell me why this is a bad idea.

EDIT: To explain a little further, with all of these hands, if it had gone:
1♥ X P ?
P

You would bid on if partner had bid 1♠, bid 2♠ if partner had bid 1NT, and pass 2♣ or 2♦.

[EricK]

Ont he first hand, if you plan to respond pass partner's 2♣ response, you will often be playing in a 4-2 minor fit, rather than a 5-3 major fit. Is that what you wan't?

A better non-standard idea, if you don't like the wide range of an overcall, is to overcall 1♠ on opening strength hands (using Zar points or similar to determine what counts as opening strength) opposite which partner bids as if you had opened, and make WJO with weaker hands. This puts enormous pressure on the opps, and does allow constructive bidding opposite your 1 level overcalls.

Eric

[the hog]

Agree with Eric. Don't forget that pd also has cue raises available to show better hands.

[nikos59]

I never double with 5 cards, I guess it is a losing
proposition. I always overcall up (up to a limit).
Partner will raise me at 2S with 3 trumps and
7-10 pts, so I won't miss anything. With 10+
he will cue their opening bid.

Your idea of doubling presupposes that opponents
are mute. What if 3rd player raises opener to 2 or 3?
Or 4H? Then you haven't shown your suit and you
may very well miss game (you know, there are
deals where both sides can make game or may
be allowed to make).

Even if 3rd player passes, how on earth is pard
to guess that you have five spades? Do you want
him to reply 1S on three small?

[joker_gib]

1♠ on every hand !

1st : you don't support ♣
2nd: 3 cards fit are easy to find and ♠ are paying more than ♣
3rd : you can eventually dbl after for take out if they are in ♥ and you don't want to let them play !

[jtfanclub]

nikos59, on Oct 20 2004, 01:47 AM, said:

I never double with 5 cards, I guess it is a losing
proposition. I always overcall up (up to a limit).
Partner will raise me at 2S with 3 trumps and
7-10 pts, so I won't miss anything. With 10+
he will cue their opening bid.

Your idea of doubling presupposes that opponents
are mute. What if 3rd player raises opener to 2 or 3?
Or 4H? Then you haven't shown your suit and you
may very well miss game (you know, there are
deals where both sides can make game or may
be allowed to make).

Even if 3rd player passes, how on earth is pard
to guess that you have five spades? Do you want
him to reply 1S on three small?

The problem with this hand is that it may very well have game across far less than a cue bid, which makes it difficult for partner to figure out what is going on. How is my partner supposed to figure out which of these have game across game if he has no idea how strong I am?

And no, I don't want partner to bid spades on three small. On the other hand, I don't want my partner raising me on a flat 7 count either when I bid 1♠, even though for these hands it works great.

[inquiry]

jtfanclub, on Oct 20 2004, 04:31 AM, said:

On the other hand, I don't want my partner raising me on a flat 7 count either when I bid 1♠, even though for these hands it works great.

Of course you want your partner raising you with a flat 7 count and three card support. First, it is protect by LOTT, second, it keeps you from feeling like you have to take a second action.. .. let's look at your first auction...

Quote

(1♥) X (2♥) P
(P) 2♠

Should only require a total of 16 points in HCP+shortness in their suit, not 16 hcp.
An example hand would be:

AJT87
5
AQ52
KT7

If you overcall 1♠, you can pass 2♥ or if you are really aggressive you could now make your takeout double.

You only feel the need to bid 2♠ here because your partner might have a little something and a three card spade fit. But if you overcalled 1♠ he would have raised himself.. so you would have bid 1♠ and then out of the auction if you don't have a fit or values.

Imagine the full hands being..

---

Now, heart lead, diamond switch king wins, diamond ruff, club to ace, diamond ruff, spade king out... you still lose two more trumps and a club, down three, proving 2♠ is a good contract, just for EW as they take 8 tricks.

[luke warm]

jtfanclub, on Oct 20 2004, 10:31 AM, said:

And no, I don't want partner to bid spades on three small. On the other hand, I don't want my partner raising me on a flat 7 count either when I bid 1♠, even though for these hands it works great.

i don't understand... assume partner has that 3 small all along... do you feel better about it now that you've bid 2S rather than 1S?

say it goes (1h) x (p) 2c (x) now what do you do? i play that a bid here shows a big hand, much bigger than the one you have

[Chamaco]

jtfanclub, on Oct 20 2004, 02:38 AM, said:

I don't like the enormous range of overcalls....I think it makes for too many problems in finding game. 

holding a max overcall, you may overcall and double later.
You will have a chance to clarify unless your overcall is pased out, which means you have not lost much, while still limiting the trouble, being at the 1-level undoubled.

[Fluffy]

I am not found of double + bid your suit calls, and IMO that bids should be made on very specfic hands, more stronger than 16 HCP, about 19 would be what I require.

On your examples: if you bid 1♠ on first 2, you are in time to make a gam trrial if partner raises, or double 2♥ after bidding 1♠ to show 5+♠+16HCP+3 cards in each minor at least.

On the third example a X+X on 2♥ looks like the prper action, X +2♠ should be done more times with a 7 carder than on a 5 carder.

[Flame]

When you have the wrong target, its make sense that you will buy the wrong shues, if games is what intrest you when RHO open then maybe playing your way is right, but the bridge world already understand that games are not the real target, in competitve bidding games are not so importet , and therefore hcp isnt too importent, the law of total trick is a better tool then hcp. getting to the right contract which usually is a partsocre, and getting our opponents out of theirs is a more inportent target then finding if we have a game.
sure we might miss a game now and then but we will still be in most of them, and will win more partscore battles.

[nikos59]

To jtfanclub:

You say you don't want your partner to raise you on 3 small
and a 7-count (we are talking here about a raise at the
2-level). It is good that bridge can accomodate so divergent
opinions, because I would change my partner if he failed twice
to raise 1S to 2S on a flat 7-count with three small spades :-)
Who wants to play with unlawful partners?

Nikos
(only exception, at unfav when he holds 3-4-3-3, then he is
allowed to pass)

[inquiry]

This topic, which is a question, has genereted considerable interest. So I have added a poll to it to accumulate votes. From the replies, it seems clear the votes will go towards a bad idea, but some might agree with JT and not want to voice their opinion, so the poll now will give voice to all.

[jtfanclub]

inquiry, on Oct 20 2004, 08:47 AM, said:

This topic, which is a question, has genereted considerable interest. So I have added a poll to it to accumulate votes. From the replies, it seems clear the votes will go towards a bad idea, but some might agree with JT and not want to voice their opinion, so the poll now will give voice to all.

Hey, now...I think it's a bad idea too. I mean, the experts are unanimously against me (I mean the experts I've read in books, not the experts here). There's a reason why I titled this "Explain why this is a bad idea" instead of "Is this a bad idea".

What I don't understand is *why* this is a bad idea. Or rather, I didn't. You guys have helped a lot. Thanks.