[ejfree]

Hi Again All....

First a big thanx to everyone who helped on the first thread. I have a pecision book (Berkowitz) , read it twice, and am beginning practice. The reason for learning "basic precision" is to begin to understand non-standard systems. I plan to continue to learn and evolve into more complex systems.

So in an effort to learn more about what I dont even know, I am trying to determine how best to gain a much deeper knowledge of precision and other systems.

1) After reading more about precision and the ilk, it seems that there are nearly hundreds of treatments. Is there a general classification that they fall under.

2) Likewise is there a general classification that other strong club systems fall under. It seems to me the MOSCITO is similar to Precision. It could also be that I dont know enought to see the difference  

3) Finally, it seems that the real issue with all of this is the partnership. Meaning that I do notthink I have ever seen an "instant" partnership decide to play precision.

All comments are welcome, even those about bananas  , because I want to undertand the various systems that are out there and the associated strengths.

[hrothgar]

I've never seen a formal attempt to establish a taxonomy of strong club systems.

With this said  and done, I have attempted to list the distinquishing features of Precision in order of importance.

I will note in passing that MOSCITO and Precision share VERY few common characteristics.  Other than they fact that both systems use a strong club opening, the two systems really don't share much in common.

1C = Strong, artificial and forcing
        1C typically shows 16+ HCP

5 card majors

Limited opening bids that show ~ 11 - 15 HCP

2C = Natural, showing 6+ clubs OR
        5+ CLubs and a 4 card major

1C - 1D = artifical negative
1C - 1H/1S = Natural, 5+ cards

2D = 3 suited hands with short Diamonds

Asking bids auctions following strong club openings

1D = 3+ Diamonds

1N = Natural, 13 - 15 HCP

2N = Natural, ~ 20-21

[ejfree]

Actually, I know this much...Scary I think.

I am looking for for characteristics of specific types of Precision.

Basic Precision.
Symmetric relays (is this the same as transfer based?)

Other strong club systems. Also, what makes the strong clubs different in 100 worrds or less

[hrothgar]

Symmetric relay and transfers aren't related to one another.

Symmetric relay is a specific "flavour" of relay bidding in which specific hand shapes are typically resolved with the same bid.

Its probably easiest to describe this by examining 5431 hand patterns.  Using symmetric relay, a 5431 hand pattern will almost always be resolved with a 3D bid.

Assume the following
You are playing symmetric relay responses over a Precision strong club opening.

You opened 1C and partner just responded 2H
2H shows any game forcing hand with precisely 4 diamonds and 5+ clubs.

You chose to rebid 2S.  2S is a relay asking partner to clarify his hand.

Here is a description of the rebids

2N  Spades are shorter than hearts
3C = 2245 shape
3D = 3145 shape
3H = 2146 shape
3S = 3046 shape

Notice that all the bids from 3D up show shorter hearts than spades.

Now assume that partner rebid 2NT, and you rebid 3C
3C is another relay, asking for more information about shape.

3D = 1345 shape
3H = 1246 shape
3S = 0346 shape

Notice that the 3D/3H/3S bids all show the same hand patterns, however, one has short hearts while the other has short spades.

The beauty of a pure symmetric relay is that ANY 5431 pattern will always be resolved with a 3D bid.  It doesn't matter whether your two long suits are clubs and diamonds or spades and hearts or whatever.  

You are always showing a 5431 hand with a 3D bid.  
You are always using 2H to show 4 cards in your higher ranking suit and 5+ cards in your lower ranking suit.
You are always using a 2NT bid to show high shortge.

This makes this class of relay structure extremely easy to remember.  Learning the bidding system simply requires learning a few very basic rules and then learning how to apply them.

With this said and done.

Many relay systems are based on transfer principles in which a 1H bid shows spades, a 2C bid shows diamonds, etc.  The goal is to have the relay asker be the first to bid responder's long suit whenever possible.  Hopefully, this will maximize the chance that the hand is declared by the hand that is asking rather than the hand that is showing.  Also, since the relay asker is typically stronger than the shower, this means that the strong hand will declare the hands more often.

[ejfree]

OK, so far ic...


Then since MOSCITO uses a strong club how does it fit into the picture?

[LukeG]

Richard's summry of basic Precision is pretty good with the exception that a 1D opening usually shows 2+ diamonds, not 3+ diamonds.

As you gain experience with Precision, you will find that having to open 2C with only 5 clubs and a side 4 card major is one of the weak spots in the system.  For example, it's very difficult (unless the opps bid) to play a 4-4 major suit fit at the 2 level.

Without taking into account the various relay systems built around a strong 1C opening, there are three major variants from the basic approach.  The first two that I will mention have different solutions to the 4M-5C hand pattern.

1) Remove all length restrictions on the 1D opening bid  so that it's completely artificial and can be done with a diamond void.  This type of system opens the 4M-5C hand with 1D.  Since the 2D opening bid is no longer needed for 3 suited hands short in diamonds (these patterns now open 1D) it can be used for Multi or whatever else you wish.  Meckwell use this type of 1D opening bid.

2) Open four card majors!  This type of system opens the 4M-5C hand with 1M.  Blue Team Club is the most popular 4 card major system, and it has a unique set of responses to 1C.  They show the number of controls (counting A=2 and K=1) with 1D = negative, 1H = positive but 2 or fewer controls, 1S = 3 controls, 1NT = 4 controls, etc.

3) Open 1C with balanced 11-13 as well as strong hands.  This type of system does nothing for the 4M-5C hand, but the 1D opening shows 4+ diamonds and is always unbalanced.

[csdenmark]

I really dont understand you Luke - your comments regarding Precision don't looks right to me!

2C-open   -    1/2-suiter
My experience playing Precision tells me the 2C open is one of the real strong advantages of the system - I think that is why that kind of bids are frequently used as conventions and in other systems too. Think of Flannery, Muiderberg  conventions  etc. The 2C open is used in Polish Club, Precision, Blue Team,  Meckwell, Hamman-Soloway, Schenken, Magic-Diamond etc.

That opening is often used for slam bidding based on distribution. I think your disappointing experience with the opening is based on your partner maybe dont think whether to bid relay for clarification(2D) or something else.

1D-open   -  1/2/3-cards
For your information Meckwell Club still plays the impossible complex. 1D-open=2+cards. 4414 open in 1-2 seat is 2H and in 3-4 seat is 2D.

There is a bit confusion about 2/3 cards for 1D open in Precision. CC Wei is co-author of a popular book by Goren. This uses 2+cards. Cinderella Team - the origin of Precision - states 3+cards

Claus - csdenmark      

[hrothgar]

Quote

I really dont understand you Luke - your comments regarding Precision don't looks right to me!

2C-open   -    1/2-suiter
My experience playing Precision tells me the 2C open is one of the real strong advantages of the system - I think that is why that kind of bids are frequently used as conventions and in other systems too. Think of Flannery, Muiderberg  conventions  etc. The 2C open is used in Polish Club, Precision, Blue Team,  Meckwell, Hamman-Soloway, Schenken, Magic-Diamond etc.

That opening is often used for slam bidding based on distribution. I think your disappointing experience with the opening is based on your partner maybe dont think whether to bid relay for clarification(2D) or something else.

Claus - csdenmark      

From my perspective, Precision has two very significant problems.

First, I am completely in agreement with Luke.
The classic Precision 2C opening is dreadful.  I do't care whether the 2C opening is good at findingdistributional slams.  Those don't occur often enough to matter.  Rather, I detest the fact the I get a miserable score any time partner has a 5-4-x-x hand pattern.

Flannery and Muilderburf both PROMISE 5-4 hand patterns.  This is very different from a bid that may or may not have be based on a 5-4.

Magic Diamond allows a 1M opening with a good 4 card major.  Playing Blue Club, you only open 2C holding a 4 card major if you are strong enough to reverse.

Second:

The Nebulous Diamond opening is another very ugly system hack.  Responder's ability to make preemptive raises in Diamonds is crippled.  Enormous complexity gets added into the response structure.  The alternative (wasting a 2D opening to show 3 suited hands with short diamonds) is barely less palatable.

[pbleighton]

1) There is a web page which privides brief summaries (mostly just opening bid structures, but it has some commentary).  I have found it to be very interesting:

http://www.sao.ru/~dim/bridge/biddings/bri...collection.text

2) Regarding the 2C problem, Precision Today recommends restricting 2C to 6+ clubs, and 1D to 2+ diamonds.  Hands with 5C and 4M are opened as follows:
a) 5440 (0 in D) - 2D
5422 - 1D
c) 3-4-1-5 and 4-3-1-5 - 2D. They can use 2NT as an asking bid to clarify distribution on 2D bids.

The theory seems to be that the 3-4-1-5 and 4-3-1-5 hands have no good answer in Precision, and that bidding them 2D, while maybe not necessarily the best solution FOR THESE HANDS, doesn't mess up other hands the way opening 1D with one diamond and opening 2C with 5 clubs does.

Does anyone have any experience of (or opinions on) this approach?

[keylime]

The 2C opening of Precision I feel is a strength of the system. I use in KLP V10 Cohen-Berowitz responses which I feel allow the diamond suit and two suiters to be much more prevalent and defined opposite a limited opening. If anyone wants a schedule of responses I'll be glad to e-mail them, but I feel strongly that the basic sets of responses over 2C is quite weak.

[hrothgar]

Quote

The 2C opening of Precision I feel is a strength of the system. I use in KLP V10 Cohen-Berowitz responses which I feel allow the diamond suit and two suiters to be much more prevalent and defined opposite a limited opening. If anyone wants a schedule of responses I'll be glad to e-mail them, but I feel strongly that the basic sets of responses over 2C is quite weak.

The Berkowitz - Cohen responses over a Precision 2C opening are certainly better than the standard structures, however, they do little to address the primary flaws of the opening bid.

To chose an extreme example, support that partner opens 2C and I hold the following

Q672
8732
KQ732
Void

I have no good response.  Partner is odds on to hold a 6223 hand, in which case 2D (or even 3D) likely to be our best spot.

I'd love to be able to explore for 2M, but I have not choice but to pass 2C, leaving us to play (best case) in our 7-0 trump fit.  Worst case, I'll play in a 5-0 trump fit with a 4-4 fit available in a major.

Most of bridge bidding consists of winning part score battles.  

The precision 2C opening is a dreadful tool for doing so.  Constructive openings at the 2 level that don't clarify whether you hold a 4 card major are a recipe for disaster.

I will note in passing that the MOSCITO 2C opening promises at least 6 cards in clubs and explictly denies a biddable 4 card major.

[the hog]

Ricahrd and Luke are right when they criticise the 2C opening, particularly on a 5431 shape. Most practitioners have limited it to a 6 card suit.
Some players have adopted a style where 2H/S shows 4 in that suit and 5+ in C. Whether you think it is worthwhile giving up 2 potentially otherwise useful bids for that hand shape is debatable; frankly I wouldn't and would rather live with the 2C problem.

The 1D opening on 0/1/2 or 3 is far less of a problem. True, as Richard points out, you lose the ability to jump in Ds pre emptively. Oh well, you can't have everything - opening 1D on a short suit sometimes means you talk them out of THEIR D fit.

[volcano]

when I was playing precision with a diamond as short as one (so we didn't have the precision 2D bid based on solely short diamonds), it just made auctions relatively clumsy. A way around this that we decided upon was having 2D being miniroman, showing all hands, 11-15 with 4-4-0-5 if the 5 card suit is a minor and all 4-4-4-1 hands with any singleton. I'd never used this convention before, but it had the beautiful side effect of 1D, 1H, 1S, and 2C promising 5+ cards in the suit opened. I quickly started to adore the convention in this context due to being able to bid as if the suit opened was a major suit.

Since this addition, I must agree the 2C opener seems to be the most difficult in the system to deal with. As such, I almost always just hope to not have to open 2C, opening 1NT if i'm 5-4-2-2, so only opening 2C if I have a 6th club or have a singleton.

[mishovnbg]

Instead of writing about different type of strong 1Cl systems i will try to explain why is difficulte to learn it 8). When u first time looking opening like 1HE: 11-15 hcp, 5+HE and play Culbertston system several years like me u think "how easy and how perfect it is". Start to play it and in the begining all is OK. But in time, if u playing with regular p u accumulate lot of additional agreement, normally not wrote. This lead to terrible mistakes and u soon "divorce" :'( or change to other system. Even top players like Zontag&Veicel give up after 300 pages agreement .
Main reason is that Precision only looking easy to play. Unlike natural systems, it use many different ways of bidding and generally dont based on methods of bidding or may be better to say based on many of them. So:
Natural system:
1CL/1DI/1HE/1SP - 1 method
1NT - 2 method
2CL - 3 method
Total: 3 methods of bidding
Precision:
1CL - 1 method
1DI - 2 method( if dont play it with 4+DI)
1HE/SP - 3 method
1NT - 4 method
2CL - 5 method
2DI - 6 method
Total: 6 methods of bidding

Simple conclusion is: Precision is two times more difficulte to learn & play then natural system!.
My advice for beginners in precision is to "take it easy" :-X and make with regular partner only "general" agreement, keeping it to several pages :.

[tangent]

Not mentioned here yet, but Finnish Club has an interesting way to deal with those pesky 4M5C hands.

2H = 4 Hs and 5+ Cs
2S = 4 Ss and 5+ Cs

Finnish club still uses short (2+) 1D openings even with the possibly of 1M being 4 cards, to handle 3325 shaped hands (another pesky distribution for strong club systems). Personally I prefer to extend the 1NT range to something like 12-15 to cover balanced hands below 1C strength so that 1D opening will only be made in 4+ cards. This makes for a more 'natural' strong club system.