[junyi_zhu]

luke warm, on Oct 16 2004, 03:07 PM, said:

i had a thought while looking over ben's hand of the week thread... why not post hands from there and see how they'd be bid in your favorite system with your favorite partner? the hard part is being objective (honest?), since the result is known... i'll start this off by posting the first 2 hands of the 1st week and showing how it should be bid by us

Scoring: IMP

---

east dealt and passed, so

E-------S------W-------N
P-------1NT----P-------2C*
P--------2S-----P-------3S
P---------P------P

1NT=12-15
2C=invitational puppet
2S=5 spades
3S=your move pard
P=minimum hand, might be wrong but here it is

hand 2:

Scoring: IMP

---

west dealt and passed, so:

W ----- N ----- E ----- S
P ------2H ----- P ---- 2NT
P ----- 3D ----- P ----- 3H
P ----- P ------ P

this is a tough hand, and kudos for passing 2NT ben... 2H shows 6 cards, 11-15 hcp... 2NT is ogust, but is not a game force... 3D shows bad hand (minimum), good suit (2 of top 3).. since opener shows 6 with A, Q, responder bids 3H... opener passes, rightly or wrongly... this is very hard, responder can hardly pass the 2H opening and can't bid spades (need 5 to bid a forcing new suit), tho 3D is possible

Hand 1, depends on whether you are aggressive or not,
1S 3C(invitational with 3 sp, shortness or 4 spades)
3S(let's stop) pass.
if you take an aggressive approach:
1S 2H
2S(minimum waiting or balanced 17-19) 3S(spade fit)
4H(pass or correct) 4S(ruffing value, best to play in S)

Hand 2:
1H 2D(GF, or stop at 4 m when both side shows minimum)
2H(minimum, waiting or balanced 17-19) 2S(waiting, minimum)
3D(diamond support) 3S(4 spades)
4D(no club stopper) pass, I may go down one, but this is the best
I can do.

[Fluffy]

1:

1♠-2♠

2:

1♥-2♦
2♥-2♠
3♥-4♥

[GijsH]

Let me have a look at how MIDMAC would deal with these hands:

Quote

Dealer: South 
Vul: All 
Scoring: IMP 
  ♠ A54 
♥ KQ942 
♦ 2 
♣ T942 
 
♠ Q9 
♥ T63 
♦ T653 
♣ KQJ8 
  ♠ T73 
♥ J8 
♦ KQJ984 
♣ A3 

♠ KJ862 
♥ A75 
♦ A7 
♣ 765 
 
 

In MIDMAC hand evaluation:
S has 12 points and very good controls: [4++] tricks
N has 11 points: [4] tricks

S N
1♠ 2♥ (N goes to [5] tricks: 8 card fit and ♦ control)
3♥ 3♠ (S goes to [5+] tricks: 8card ♥ fit)
4♠

8 combined controls is enough for 10 tricks.
The game is excellent when vulnerable: finesse on trump queen and extra chances on a non-club lead: much more than the 35% required for vulnerable game.

Quote

Dealer: North 
Vul: EW 
Scoring: IMP 
  ♠ K5 
♥ AQT932 
♦ Q82 
♣ J3 
 
♠ JT94 
♥ 54 
♦ 9 
♣ 987652 
  ♠ 732 
♥ J876 
♦ AJT 
♣ AKT 

♠ AQ86 
♥ K 
♦ K76543 
♣ Q4 

N has 13 points, 3 controls: [4] tricks
S has 15 points (sin K counts for 2), 4 controls: [4+] tricks

N S
1♥ 2♦
S goes to 13 points: HK counts 3 now, but subtract 3 points for sin in pd suit)
2♥ 2♠/pass
(S may pass here: the hands do not fit, only 7 controls in combined hands and we are not vul so 50% required for bidding game)
3♦ pass! (N denies a ♣ stopper)

Great hands for a great system.
For more information on MIDMAC: see www.midmac.tk

[flytoox]

I will bid to game with both hands in IMPs.

[Free]

MOSCITO:

First problem:
1♥* - 2♠**

* = 9-14, 4+♠
** = 6-9(10), 3 card ♠

The North hand is really maximum for 2-level support, and might try with an invitational relay, but it brings a problem with it, that with the current agreements, I'm afraid we can't stop under 4♠. Bidding would then be:
1♥* - 1♠**
1NT(1) - 2♣**
2♦(2) - 2♥**
2NT(3) - 3♠
pass/4♠(4)

** = relay
(1) = bal / unbal with exactly 4♠s
(2) = balanced
(3) = 5 card ♠
(4) = normally we are in a GF auction, so pass is probably not an option, and it makes 3♠ also a wrong bid

Second problem:

Here we also have several options. We can start with an invitational relay, or bid 1♠ natural and F1. Both bring different problems with them...
1♦* - 1♥**
2♦(1) - 3♦
pass

* = 9-14, 4+♥
** = relay, inv+
(1) = singlesuited in ♥ (6+ card), not absolutely minimum
Hard to find 3NT, 5♦ seems very far away, and partner has no ♥ support, so pass on 3♦

1♦* - 1♠**
2♥ - pass

** = nat, 4+♠, F1
Since we have an absolute misfit situation, we might consider pass over 2♥. Bidding 3♦ might be an alternative.


In both situations, we can end up in several contracts, it depends on how we start and how we continue, how we feel at the table

[whereagles]

Hand 1:
(2D) 2S (3C) 3H
pass 4H pass 4S
(all pass)
2D weak, 3C fit non jump.

Hand 2:
1C (1D) 3C (3H)
pass (3S) pass (4D)
(all pass)

Bread and butter bidding. LOL.

[MarceldB]

According bidding system REGRESsion:

Problem 1

1♥* - 2♥**
3♣*** - 3♥

*8-12p. 4333/4432 or any 5332 with no 2toph./3 or 5M4?22
**8-12p. 5+c♥ n.f.
***helpsuit trial

Problem 2
2♣* - 3♦**
Pass

*8-12p. 5♥332 with 2 toph./3 OR 6♥322 toph.=?
** 7-12 6crd♦ (if 9-12 a 5c possible and a singleton/void♥)
Q♣ nothing worth opposite a known double/tripleton ànd a misfit, so downgrade your 14-pointer

Rgds. Marcel

[1eyedjack]

GijsH, on Oct 19 2004, 03:46 AM, said:

The game is excellent when vulnerable: finesse on trump queen and extra chances on a non-club lead: much more than the 35% required for vulnerable game.

Last time I calculated it I made it about 40% required for vulnerable game at IMPs to be borderline to bid. And that simplistic calculation contrasts making with failing by one trick (possibly doubled, I forget), but it ignores the impact of going several down doubled when the cards do not behave.

Certainly if they do start off with 4 rounds of Clubs you are well below 40%. How likely is a Club lead I cannot say, and it may well make the difference to make it odds on to bid it, but to describe it as "excellent" is pure hyperbole.

Of more interest, to my mind, is that if you are going to stay out of a borderline game your system will gain if you can stay at the 2 level, in which my earlier suggestion succeeds.

[hrothgar]

Not sure if I agree with Free regarding his suggested MOSCITO auction on the following:

Scoring: IMP

---

The hand is very tricky, since its right on a cusp where any one of a number of different option could be correct. From my perspective, responder needs to chose between three distinct bids:

1. An immediate raise to 2♠: This promises precisely three card support with 8-9 losers. The hand in question clearly seems too strong:

2. A 1♠ relay responses, promising at least game invitation values. This bid is clearly preferred to 2♠

3. A 3♥ response showing 6-8 losers, 6+ Hearts and 3 Spades. I have, on occasion, made a fit jump with a five card suit. In this case, I think that the quality of the heart suit is slightly too weak. However, chance the Heart suit to ♥KQT96 or so and I'd prefer 3♥ to 1♠

With this said and done, I disagree with the suggested relay auction.

1♥ - 1♠
1NT - 2♣
2♦

is clear. The 2♦ response promises a balanced hand with 11+ - 14 HCP. Even so, I don't think that responder is strong enough to game force and would prefer a natural 2♠ response showing 3 card spade support and invitational values.

BTW< for what its worth, Paul recently tweaked the system to permit a 1NT opening holding 5332 shape with a 5 card major. The normal rules regarding strength apply. Following this set of agreements, the 1♥ opening shows 11+ -12 HCP, making the natural 2♠ response even more clear.

[Acesfull]

Ok, I'm no expert, and I hesitate to call myself advanced, but I'm wondering why more people aren't in game on hand 1. Switch a low club with a diamond in the South hand and game is much better, yet the bidding would be the same. If you aren't in game on that hand, I think you are underbidding.

[inquiry]

Acesfull, on Oct 20 2004, 06:55 AM, said:

Ok, I'm no expert, and I hesitate to call myself advanced, but I'm wondering why more people aren't in game on hand 1. Switch a low club with a diamond in the South hand and game is much better, yet the bidding would be the same. If you aren't in game on that hand, I think you are underbidding.

This is an interesting phenomena.. they will all tell you they are not influenced by seeing all four hands, and probably mean it... but, it is very hard not to find justification for bids if you see all four hands. it is unintential. Best if yuo never show the other two hands... btw, i am sure many people would not reach game because in real world about 1/3 field didn't bid game.

ben

[luke warm]

you're right, ben... in my first post i even mentioned how hard it is to stay objective... i probably fell victim to that trap myself

[junyi_zhu]

Acesfull, on Oct 20 2004, 10:55 AM, said:

Ok, I'm no expert, and I hesitate to call myself advanced, but I'm wondering why more people aren't in game on hand 1. Switch a low club with a diamond in the South hand and game is much better, yet the bidding would be the same. If you aren't in game on that hand, I think you are underbidding.

because it highly depends on how well your hand fit with your partner's. Responder's hand is a little bit more than 7 losers. With a 4th spade, it would be enough for force to game.

[jtfanclub]

Acesfull, on Oct 20 2004, 05:55 AM, said:

Ok, I'm no expert, and I hesitate to call myself advanced, but I'm wondering why more people aren't in game on hand 1. Switch a low club with a diamond in the South hand and game is much better, yet the bidding would be the same. If you aren't in game on that hand, I think you are underbidding.

I disagree. For one thing, the ♥A is the perfect and necessary card...he could just as easily have the minor suit queens, for example. And even with that perfect card game is still around 50%, and I don't mind missing those. Especially if I can miss them at the 2 level, while others will be missing it at the three level.

Using our system, partner has a max for a minimum bid. Another spade, a singleton, a couple of HCP, and he'd bid differently. When you have a bid that tells you game is doubtful, don't screw around hoping that partner will have the perfect cards. Let it stop.

I don't know if it's a holdover from rubber bridge or what, but people often seem to think the way to win is to take partner's maximum points and shape for his bid and if it might make game if the cards lie right, bid it.

It doesn't really matter to me that there's some theoretically possible shape and points where we might have a shot of making it. Responder has 11 MIDMAC points +3 for fit. Opener has 11-13 MIDMAC points according to his bids. That's 25-27. Not worth trying for game on that.

[the hog]

hrothgar, on Oct 20 2004, 03:51 AM, said:

Dealer: South Vul: All Scoring: IMP

♠ A54 ♥ KQ942 ♦ 2 ♣ T942 ♠ Q9 ♥ T63 ♦ T653 ♣ KQJ8 ♠ T73 ♥ J8 ♦ KQJ984 ♣ A3 ♠ KJ862 ♥ A75 ♦ A7 ♣ 765

Does anyone seriously want to be in game on this hand? It depends on a 3-2 S break and a S hook, and some very remote probabilities of no H ruff etc. You are not going to make this game on any normal line as it is correct to take the S hook. And if you say you would play for the drop after seeing the S9, thats nonsense as that is a standard falsecard from 9x in this position. I make it under 40%

[mike777]

Playing 2/1 game force, to stay out of game on hand 2 seems very much double dummy hand evaluation.

[mikestar]