[VixTD]

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Inter-county teams-of-eight, cross-IMPs -> VPs

3NT (alerted) = 13-16 pts with a long major
4♣ = request to bid one step below the major held
4♥ = forgotten the system

Result: 5♥(S)-1, NS -100

EW called the TD (again, not me) at the end of play, and asked for a ruling. Can you see any reason to adjust the score?

[BunnyGo]

I am not a TD, but why is North bidding 5♥? Is it a bid to accommodate his partner's misbid? Otherwise it seems like a strange bid.

[jnichols]

And why is South bidding 5♦?

[campboy]

I think we need to know more about the methods. If, for example, 4♠ is an absolute signoff in this sequence (as seems like a sensible agreement) then 5♦ makes it clear that South has misbid in some way.

I don't think there can be any problem with the 5♦ bid itself, since South doesn't have UI and can't be fielding anything.

[Oof Arted]

mmmm

James its not the same ruddy pair forn your nuber 1 is it

If so 60/30 em

[RMB1]

VixTD, on 2011-November-29, 08:48, said:

3NT (alerted) = 13-16 pts with a long major
4♣ = request to bid one step below the major held
4♥ = forgotten the system

It is not clear if these were responses to questions or just a description of the calls.

I assume that only 3NT was alerted and no explanations were given during the auction, so North/South had no UI.

... in which case the only adjustment would be a fielded misbid for AVE-/AVE+,
but it looks like NS have already lost the comparisons by more than the relevant amount.

This post has been edited by RMB1: 2011-November-29, 09:49

[Cyberyeti]

Looks like no case for adjustment unless some other UI was floating around.

4♠/5♦ are just cues from S's point of view and 5♥ a signoff missing a club control.

Why N bid 5♥ is less clear and I'd like to hear his version of why, but I suspect since 4♠ looks like a signoff, he may have diagnosed what happened when partner bid over it.

[billw55]

VixTD, on 2011-November-29, 08:48, said:

Result: 5♥(S)-1, NS -100

EW called the TD (again, not me) at the end of play, and asked for a ruling. Can you see any reason to adjust the score?

eh, I dont understand some players. Ops botched their auction and handed over an ice cold vulnerable game, at IMPs even. What more can they want?

[Pig Trader]

Oof Arted, on 2011-November-29, 09:27, said:

mmmm

James its not the same ruddy pair forn your nuber 1 is it

If so 60/30 em

No - This was from a different group - Honest, Guv!

Barrie

[AlexJonson]

RMB1, on 2011-November-29, 09:39, said:

It is not clear if these were responses to questions or just a description of the calls.

I assume that only 3NT was alerted and no explanations were given during the auction, so North/South had no UI.

... in which case the only adjustment would be a fielded misbid for AVE-/AVE+,
but it looks like NS have already lost the comparisons by more than the relevant amount.

Is the 5H still treated as a fielded misbid, if there was no UI, and a concealed understanding is vanishingly unlikely?

[RMB1]

AlexJonson, on 2011-November-29, 10:31, said:

Is the 5H still treated as a fielded misbid, if there was no UI, and a concealed understanding is vanishingly unlikely?

I was just trying to focus in on what the issues were, not suggesting that there was necessaruily a fielded misbid.

We could rule red fielded misbid if we thought the only reason for 5♥ was a concealed implicit agreement that 4♥ could be long ♥ (presumably, an implicit agreement based on opener having forgotten before).

This post has been edited by RMB1: 2011-November-29, 11:18

[Ant590]

As other posters have commented, it seems that the following situation could be possible:

4♣:
North "transfer to your major"
South "bid your major"

4[hearts}:
South "this is my major"
North "partner has spades"

4♠:
North "I want to play here opposite your spade hand"
South "Cuebid agreeing hearts"

5♦:
South "Cooperating with the cuebidding auction, highlighting club issue"
North "WTF, either partner has slam try after making a limited opening, or he's forgotten system"

5♥:
North "Guess he's forgotten system"
South "Ok, neither of us have a club control, lets hope this isn't -1"

However, there seem to be two questions:
(a) Can slam tries me made after the 4♣ bid?
(b) Is the case that responder can make slam tries, but opener can't?

I wouldn't feel comfortable making a ruling until hearing NS's account of the auction, and the above questions. It could be the case of a fielded misbid, and North perhaps should have continued to bid 5♠ etc?

[FrancesHinden]

I agree with RMB1 that you might consider ruling fielded misbid, but NS have already got a far worse result than av+/av- so I would rule the result stands. Unless there was some explicit UI at the table, North's 5H bid is simply catering for a system screw-up, which indeed has happened. I can't see how EW can ask for more.

[bluejak]

AlexJonson, on 2011-November-29, 10:31, said:

Is the 5H still treated as a fielded misbid, if there was no UI, and a concealed understanding is vanishingly unlikely?

No, but in this case it is quite likely: it just means he has forgotten before!

[phil_20686]

I cant understand any adjustment here. Seems like south's bidding is beyond reproach - he thought they were cue bidding hearts and respected the 5 level sign off.

To north souths bidding clearly reveals the misunderstanding - he basically appears to have opened 3N with a hand that can drive slam on its own when I havent promised any values, so its pretty clear he has forgotten and must think 4S is a slam move in hearts. Since that is AI, I can bid 5h.

[phil_20686]

bluejak, on 2011-November-30, 03:29, said:

No, but in this case it is quite likely: it just means he has forgotten before!

If they had a CPU north would have passed 4H....

[VixTD]

Perhaps this one wasn't so interesting, as the only problem is whether there's been a fielded misbid, and as many of you have pointed out, EW haven't been damaged if there has, but I was interested to know what you think of South's actions. Like Phil, I couldn't see anything wrong with South's bidding if he was trying to cue-bid and then giving up when North denied a club control, but he might have just been making a bid that he feels is most likely to elicit a 5♥ response from North so he can pass safely. I too would like to have asked NS why they bid the way they did; there may have been an innocent explanation.