[Zelandakh]

barmar, on 2011-November-24, 22:53, said:

Control bids and Last Train are most frequently above 3NT, and ACBL doesn't require alerts at that level except on the first round (is there a system where you can start control bidding that soon?).

Quite possible in a strong club system. For example I play 1C - 1H; 1S - 1NT; 2S as agreeing spades and starting a (denial) cue auction, complete with frivlous 2NT. It would not occur to me not to alert these cue bids though!

[blackshoe]

aguahombre, on 2011-November-24, 22:21, said:

The "first definition" to which you refer defines a convention. Control bids convey a meaning quite related to the suit which is bid.

Last Train would fall under "not necessarily related" to the suit bid. Please explain how you arrive at the conclusion that control bids (often called cuebids even though they are not in a suit bid by the opponents) are alertable or delay alertable in ACBL.

If asked after the auction, of course we would explain.

Yes, control bids convey a meaning related to the suit bid. They also convey a meaning related to another suit - the putative trump suit. So they convey a meaning "not necessarily related to the suit bid". Therefore they are conventional. They are not among the four exceptions (conventional bids that do not require an alert) therefore they require an alert.

When an alert is required, "If asked after the auction, of course we would explain" without the required alert isn't good enough.

barmar, on 2011-November-24, 22:53, said:

Control bids and Last Train are most frequently above 3NT, and ACBL doesn't require alerts at that level except on the first round (is there a system where you can start control bidding that soon?).

1♠-4♣, where 4♣ is a splinter (showing first or second round control) in support of spades.

ACBL requires alerts above 3NT at or after opener's second bid. This is not necessarily the first bid of the second round of bidding. The required alert is delayed until after the final pass of the auction (and before the opening lead is made face down).

aguahombre, on 2011-November-25, 01:30, said:

Hence, "delay alert" was posted. It sounded to me as if Blackshoe was saying that about control bids, so it would still be nice to hear why.

Forgive me for not providing an instant answer to the question. I do have other things to do besides sitting here waiting for people to ask me questions.

[barmar]

blackshoe, on 2011-November-25, 08:13, said:

Yes, control bids convey a meaning related to the suit bid. They also convey a meaning related to another suit - the putative trump suit.

What do they convey about the trump suit? Control bids are usually used after agreeing on a suit.

After seeing the Jacoby 2NT example above, I realized that there's a pretty common situation where we show stoppers on the 2 level: Inverted Minors. After raising a minor, a popular style is to start showing stopped suits, so partner can bid NT if they have the other suits stopped. But no one alerts this -- they do convey a meaning related to the suit bid, but not necessarily length.

[blackshoe]

barmar, on 2011-November-25, 08:31, said:

What do they convey about the trump suit? Control bids are usually used after agreeing on a suit.

After seeing the Jacoby 2NT example above, I realized that there's a pretty common situation where we show stoppers on the 2 level: Inverted Minors. After raising a minor, a popular style is to start showing stopped suits, so partner can bid NT if they have the other suits stopped. But no one alerts this -- they do convey a meaning related to the suit bid, but not necessarily length.

Hm. Okay, I see your point that a control bid doesn't necessarily convey anything extra about the trump suit, per se. It does convey slam interest, which may not have been previously expressed. I still think it requires an alert. If it doesn't, then the alert regulation has a huge hole in it.

I"ll have to think about the looking for NT thing.

[aguahombre]

blackshoe, on 2011-November-25, 08:53, said:

Hm. Okay, I see your point that a control bid doesn't necessarily convey anything extra about the trump suit, per se. It does convey slam interest, which may not have been previously expressed. I still think it requires an alert. If it doesn't, then the alert regulation has a huge hole in it.

I"ll have to think about the looking for NT thing.

Yes, when a trump suit has been established, game is forced, and we are bidding other suits afterward, the bids convey slam interest . If they don't require an alert when they convey information about controls in the suits bid, then the big hole in the alert regulations let in some common sense.

If the slam probing bids don't carry any particular meaning about the bids and are merely marking time, showing general slam interest, or are ASKING ---then there would be a need to alert and disclose them at the appropriate times.

[blackshoe]

I'm usually pretty good about interpreting what I read, even in the ACBL's convoluted regs. I've been wrong before, though, and probably will be again. What does HQ say?

[bluejak]

barmar, on 2011-November-25, 08:31, said:

After seeing the Jacoby 2NT example above, I realized that there's a pretty common situation where we show stoppers on the 2 level: Inverted Minors. After raising a minor, a popular style is to start showing stopped suits, so partner can bid NT if they have the other suits stopped. But no one alerts this -- they do convey a meaning related to the suit bid, but not necessarily length.

I alert them.

[aguahombre]

barmar, on 2011-November-25, 08:31, said:

Inverted Minors. After raising a minor, a popular style is to start showing stopped suits, so partner can bid NT if they have the other suits stopped. But no one alerts this -- they do convey a meaning related to the suit bid, but not necessarily length.

bluejak, on 2011-November-27, 03:34, said:

I alert them.

As do I. It is not a pure example for the debate, however. The stopper-showing bids carry additional information about other suits or strength, when played by people who have thoroughly defined their follow-ups; and thus should be alerted anyway.