[Bbradley62]

3♣ then 3♠?

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[aguahombre]

South passed a forcing bid?

[Bbradley62]

aguahombre, on 2011-November-20, 18:10, said:

South passed a forcing bid?

Yes, which is exactly why I have called him "silly human".

[barmar]

The book bid is 3♠.

In simulations at IMP scoring, my results are 7x2N, 2x3♣, 2x3♠. At MP, it's 5x2N, 6x3♠. Its "plan" when bidding 2N is to bid 3N on the next round, to show its ♥ stopper.

[calm01]

I suspect 2S would be to play, 3S would be a six card suit, possibly non-forcing, 2NT followed by 3S may also show 5C and 4 spades, a direct 4S gives up on a possible club or spade slam so the North hand has a difficult bidding problem.

With the bidding opponent likely to have the red suits, a black suit slam is a reasonable possibility if partner has few wasted points in diamonds but even then may we subject to bad breaks including a heart lead and a heart ruff.

If I held the North hand I would try 3H to hear what partner has to say and go for 4S if partner does not mention a black suit. This must be a slam invitation as I could have bid it directly over 2H.

But it is sometimes tough out there!

Even a GIB with good bidding principles on board could not be reasonably expected to cope well with this difficult hand unless I have overlooked something obvious to others.

[Bbradley62]

So, this is not something we should expect GIB to do often?

[Bbradley62]

calm01, on 2011-November-20, 21:04, said:

3S would be a six card suit, possibly non-forcing...

It sounds like you are not playing Lebensohl.

[barmar]

calm01, on 2011-November-20, 21:04, said:

I suspect 2S would be to play, 3S would be a six card suit, possibly non-forcing, 2NT followed by 3S may also show 5C and 4 spades, a direct 4S gives up on a possible club or spade slam so the North hand has a difficult bidding problem.

Here's how GIB plays them:

2♠ = to play
3♠ = 5+♠, GF
2NT followed by 3♠ = 5+♠, Invitational
4♠ = 6+♠, GF but not slammish

GIB doesn't play Texas in this auction; I wonder if we should change that.

[aguahombre]

barmar, on 2011-November-20, 21:48, said:

Here's how GIB plays them:
2NT followed by 3♠ = 5+♠, Invitational
4♠ = 6+♠, GF but not slammish

GIB doesn't play Texas in this auction; I wonder if we should change that.

Definitely need to change that. 2nt then 3S invite with only 5 spades leaves you nowhere to go with a minimum and a 5-2 fit.

Normal thought processes would have 2nt, then 3S show 6 spades. And yes, force the BOT to use Texas after interference through 3C.

The immediate 3S should normally show 5 spades and G.F, but might have 6+ and slammish. Continuing over the 3NT choice would show the slammish one, and if opener has a nice hand for spades he will cue over 3S in case responder is slammish.

[barmar]

I just checked the book "The Lebensohl Convention Complete" by Ron Anderson. Chapter 3 on Game Invitational Hands agrees with GIB's system. If opener has a minimum, you might play in a 5-2 fit on the 3 level.

[aguahombre]

In that case, I am glad my pard is not a book or a bot. Hard to inprove methods with either one.

[barmar]

OK, that book is almost 25 years old, so maybe it's out of date. So now I'm checking for web sites.

http://www.bridgeguy...nseletizia.html agrees with GIB.
http://www.bridgeguy...convention.html agrees with GIB.
http://www.bridgehan...Notrump auction agrees with GIB.
http://www.bridge.pro.br/lebs.htm#1 says 2NT followed by a suit higher than the opponent's shows a 5-card suit and a stopper in the opponent's suit.
http://www.pattayabr...s/Lebensohl.pdf agrees with GIB.
http://www.gravesend.../Lebensohl.html doesn't describe this sequence.
http://www.worldwide..._convention.htm doesn't describe this sequence.
http://bridge.wikia.com/wiki/Lebensohl agrees with GIB.

So of all the web sites that describe the sequence of bidding a higher suit after going through 2NT, only one has a meaning other than the one GIB uses. It's from Brazil, so maybe it's a local stylistic difference.

I'm not sure how much more I can do to convince you that this is the standard way that Lebensohl is played. Or don't you think that matters?

[Mbodell]

This is totally standard, except 4 level should include Texas. But 2nt then 3♠ is 5+ cards and an invite.

[georgi]

Seems like few more issues here.

1) pass is not "ruled", which means a hand like ♠QJxx ♥xxx ♦xxx ♣Qxx or ♠Qxxx ♥Jxxx ♦xx ♣Axx could qualify for incorrect bids (even rarely) or similar hands like these have no place to go easily.

2) 3♣/3♦ were not restricted of not having 4th OtherMajor ( with 2♥ or 2♠ overcall ) if the minor is just 5th. Which means with 4-5 or 5-5 in Major-Minor, GIB could sometimes ( although 3Major has priority but after simulation even rarely ) prefer the minor ( with GF values, not invitational ).