[1eyedjack]

IMP

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If your system requires you to respond 2D on this hand (Basically Acol, 4 card majors, 2N response reserved), is there a way to stay low with confidence here?
Leaving aside the odd aberration where one pair played in 1S and another in 7S, about half the room played in 4S and half in 6S. As it happens, 5S was too high.
But give South instead, say
♠J73
♥Q86
♦AQT76
♣Q5
and how then if at all would it be bid differently?

[JLOGIC]

How is Jxx Qxx AQTxx Qx a good slam? I guess on a heart lead you just drive out the spade and hope for diamonds coming in or a squeeze or stiff K of spades...that is better than 50 %, but on a club lead you're in trouble.

Seems like 1S 2D 3C 4S should get north to shut up on this actual hand. I have no experience with acol though, it seems like it sucks for slam hands in general at least theoretically (again have never played it).

I guess if south has AQJxx of diamonds, Kxx of spades, and jumps to 4S we miss 7 though. I don't see a good solution, just seems like guesswork. Maybe south should not jump with a hand that has a source of tricks and a spade honor.

[1eyedjack]

Yes, clearly it is not so nice on a Club lead. But the opening leader has to find the lead, and he has to not have the King, and even then the Spades and Diamonds may behave. I think it is a slam that I would want to be in.

[JLOGIC]

I think since it's not that great (but over 50 %) on a non club lead and pretty bad on a club lead its not a good slam.

Maybe my line is bad though, another line is diamond to the queen, spade to the queen and if Kx of spades is on you wrap and if not you try a club to the queen? Maybe that line is really good and I'm retarded, didn't think about it too much.

Sorry for hijacking your thread about how to play a hand when it's about the bidding, I guess my main point is in this system it will be impossible to get to the good slams and miss that bad ones. I guess north just has to make a decision over 1S 2D 3C 4S and will guess wrong a significant amount of the time (fwiw I assume 4S means a bad hand with 3 spades since 3C is GF). Bidding 3C seems automatic over bidding 3S or something since clubs could easily be the best spot.

[Zelandakh]

How about 1S - 2D; 2S - 3S; 4C as a start Jack? Even better if you play Robson's method where 4C is a natural slam try...

[Flameous]

I think in acol 2♦ doesn't promise a rebid? So you can't use 2♠ as a catch all as partner might pass it. Although this definitely depends on the version of acol and modern ones can bid it that way.

Without adding any artificiality, I don't really see but the sequence J suggested and making the tough choice over 4♠.

[pooltuna]

South's hand is a constructive raise in most 5 card major systems. So I presume in ACOL a downgrade to 1NT is probably best.

[TMorris]

In Acol you'd never bid 1NT with the S hand as it is much too good, 2 ♦ would be normal. Can't say I've had particular problems bidding slams playing Acol or indeed staying out of bad ones.

1♠ 2 ♦
3♣ 4♠

is possible as 4 ♠ shows a minimum for the 2 ♦ bid with 3 card support as is

1 ♠ 2♦
3 ♣ 3♠
4♣ 4♦
4♥ 4♠

since over 4♥ South has no first or 2nd round control to show & is a minimum

[gwnn]

Pooltuna, you're misunderstanding Acol. In Acol if you respond 1NT you tell partner "I want to play here opposite 15-16 balanced". So you need to bid a 2/1 (or a 1 level suit response if available) whenever you want to be in game opp a minimum strong NT, that means that all 10 counts most 9 counts and indeed many 8's bid 2/1.

[TMorris]

Well that is traditional Acol. There are quite a number who have increased the requirement for 2/1 to 10 from the traditional 8.

[pooltuna]

gwnn, on 2011-October-26, 08:25, said:

Pooltuna, you're misunderstanding Acol. In Acol if you respond 1NT you tell partner "I want to play here opposite 15-16 balanced". So you need to bid a 2/1 (or a 1 level suit response if available) whenever you want to be in game opp a minimum strong NT, that means that all 10 counts most 9 counts and indeed many 8's bid 2/1.

yeah, I basically don't know squat about ACOL and if I have to bid 2♦ with this hand I know too much about it already

[mr1303]

Playing Acol, there is no way to stop in 4S unless North decides not to advance after:

1S 2D
3S 4S
?

[TMorris]

Well if 4S denies Ace or King in clubs diamonds and hearts you might well stop in 4S.

[xxhong]

Playing traditional acol, I think south's hand is a 2NT bid, which is natural and nonforcing. 2D then later raise should show distributional hands. Of course, nowadays, most play 2NT as J2nt I think, in that sense, perhaps 1NT response is fine if you play a 14-16 1NT opening.

1eyedjack, on 2011-October-25, 23:17, said:

IMP

---

If your system requires you to respond 2D on this hand (Basically Acol, 4 card majors, 2N response reserved), is there a way to stay low with confidence here?
Leaving aside the odd aberration where one pair played in 1S and another in 7S, about half the room played in 4S and half in 6S. As it happens, 5S was too high.
But give South instead, say
♠J73
♥Q86
♦AQT76
♣Q5
and how then if at all would it be bid differently?

[FrancesHinden]

After 1S - 2D - 3C, I don't understand why South would feel the need to jump to 4S: if he bid 3S and partner bid 3NT he'd be very happy to pass.

South's rebids should be:

- 3D = worth rebidding my heart suit
- 3H = fourth suit forcing, I don't know what to bid
- 3S = I had a limit raise in spades

After 1S - 2D - 3C - 3S - 4C South has a difficult choice between 4D and 4S (I have a bad hand), but even after ...4D - 4H South has an obvious sign-off, and North no reason to advance further: South will know that club cards are gold and would advance.
Alternatively, North might prefer to bid 4D over 3S to show the key diamond card; when South signs off he'll pass.

[FrancesHinden]

TMorris, on 2011-October-26, 08:33, said:

Well that is traditional Acol. There are quite a number who have increased the requirement for 2/1 to 10 from the traditional 8.

No, that's not traditional Acol.
In traditional Acol 1M - 2m - 2NT was non-forcing.

The more common approach now is exactly as gwnn as described it: you make a 2/1 if you want to be in game opposite 15+ balanced.
I don't know of anyone who thinks you need 10+ HCP for a 2/1 and can also truthfully say they are still playing Acol.

[han]

Talking about prehistoric bidding, I played against the English senior team in the transnationals. Friendly people.

I also played against Frances Hinden btw but my memories of her are less fond.

[AlexJonson]

I'm not sure who owns this strange 'Acol' brand nowadays, if anyone. I suspect noone.

This hand looks like a typical, medium level competition, points winner/loser to me.

Wouldn't pretend to offer an opinion about top level play.

[Zelandakh]

han, on 2011-October-29, 13:38, said:

Talking about prehistoric bidding, I played against the English senior team in the transnationals. Friendly people.

I also played against Frances Hinden btw but my memories of her are less fond.

Do you mean "friendly" and "less fond" in terms of their IMP donation tendencies, han, or is there an 'in' joke I am missing here?

[han]

Well, I was mostly the one donating IMPs to Frances, but that was what I was talking about.

What else could I possibly mean?