[Flem72]

Folk:

Those of you who have played XYZ in a SNT, 2/1 context might be able to give me the benefit of your experience.

A partner and I have been playing this stuff for quite a while, but we've been taking another look at the two-suiter sequences, specifically (1) R's immediate jump rebids vs. (2) R's 2D, then 3-level rebids. Many play (1) as showing "pure" two-suiters and (2) for "spread out values" two-suiters, both seqs GF+; others play (1) as SI, (2) as GF. Both approaches have their advantages, but after O starts things off with what is most often going to be a WNT one-of-a-minor opener, we're trying to decide whether it is better to understand suit quality or game/slam at O's 2nd rebid. Maybe its a toss up, and I've run off about 500 hands to take a look at it, but I'm wondering: has one or the other worked better or worse for anyone ?

Regards and Happy Trails,

Scott Needham
Boulder, Colorado, USA

[Free]

I'm happy with the way I play XYZ, which means including 2NT as a puppet to 3♣.
The relevant auctions are:
...-2NT-3♣-3X = GF 55+
...-3X = INV 55+
...-2♦-blabla-3X = GF 5-4 (or 6-4/7-4/8-4/9-4 if you want)

Knowing that R holds 4 or 5 is quite important for slam exploration imo, suit quality usually isn't that big of a deal below 3NT (you first need to decide if you'll go for slam or not, a 9th trump is very useful).

[Flem72]

 Free, on 2011-October-24, 08:59, said:

...-3X = INV 55+

So are R's 2C seqs still inv, probably one suited or square? And we've always played 2N as a relay for either weak w/Cs or 5-4s in X/Y -- not sure how to revamp to allow for differences; maybe you'd feel moved to expand a bit on your structure?

 Free, on 2011-October-24, 08:59, said:

...-2NT-3♣-3X = GF 55+

3N is Cs?

 Free, on 2011-October-24, 08:59, said:

suit quality usually isn't that big of a deal below 3NT

[Free]

2♣ still contains most invites, but not 5-5. 1X-1Y-1Z-2♣-2♦-3m shows INV with 4M and 5+m.

GF hands with 5M-5♣ rebid 3M after 2NT-3♣, not 3NT.

[mike777]

Im not crazy about going to the 3 level to show invites.
that means not being as precise in showing such exact shape. that is the tradeoff.

that means I might even lose the diamond suit with 4M and 5d for exampleA:

1c=1h
1s=2c!
2d=2nt
or
1c=1h
1s=2nt

I suppose you might want one auction to show 5h and the other one 4h but in both cases I could lose a 5card d suit.

Inote in both cases opener can rebid 3h over 2nt to show gf and 3h. We can never play in exactly 3h.

[inquiry]

Free is on the right track. i too use xyz - 2NT as a transfer to 3♣, OVER 3♣ 3 of a suit (that is non-pass) is a "distributional" game try.
XYZ Convention



In XYZ, a bid of 2♣ by responder at second turn forces opener to bid 2D, this might be signoff attempt in diamonds, or any game invite hand. Likewise, a bid of 2D by responder is absolutely game force. Part of xyz, often overlooked, is that an 2NT rebid by responder is also part of the system, and yes, xyz also in effect on 1H-1S-1NT.

1X-1Y-1Z
----> 2C forces 2D
-------->2D more or less forced
-----------> any bid game try, including 2NT, jumps stronger game tries than non jumps
----> 2D game force, all further bids forcing
-----------> opener rebids unbid 4card major before raise with three
----> 2NT forces 3C
-----------> 3C
----------------> pass (signoff in clubs)
----------------> any other distribution game try (as opposed to 2♣ then 3 level, more hcp based)

All simple raises are weak, all jumps are forcing and very distributional. In addition, playing XYZ, not all game force hands start with 2♦. A jump shift shows a 5-5 hand and game forcing values. This means of course that jumps always show a real second suit with good distribution as does jump rebids, rather than some artificial force thing. i also use Reverse flannery by responder so that 1m-1S-1NT-2H is not forcing, but better than minimum. This adds definition to 1m-1S-1NT-2C-2D-2H, which is stronger than the direct 2H rebid. 2H here by opener is not forcing.

Note, after 2nt==> 3♣ if responder then rebids 3nt or 4 of a suit, it is a slam try despite not going though 2♦. I have complete details on my treatment of this on my inquiry2over1 blog, probably more stuff there than necessary.

[Free]

There are many versions of XYZ, I got mine from the Dutch "IMP magazine". The way the 2NT puppet is used seems to be different in the USA. I guess both approaches have their merrit.

I must note that I agree with Mike to not always show the invites at 3-level.
For example, after 1♣-1♥-1Z: holding 4♥-5♣ I'll invite with 2♣-2♦-3♣ showing 4♥-5+♣ because the fit is sure ; holding 4♥-5♦ I'll probably invite in NT because fit isn't sure at all (especially if opener rebid 1♠) ; holding 4♥-6+♦ I'll probably invite with 2♣-2♦-3♦. It definitely depends on the situation.

[gwnn]

I used all jumps as 5-5 GF, even after suit rebids.

(1♦-1♠
2♣-3♥ = 5-5 GF

1♣-1♥
1♠-3♦ = 5-5 GF)

I am happy when I can define my hand very quickly like this. I was confused by various other ways to show them. It makes sense to me to make them 5-5 and if you bid the suits more slowly you have less cards (5-4).

Obviously this pretty fairytale from this post will soon turn grim once you include the possibility of a 4M5m GF you might want to show.

[mike777]

 gwnn, on 2011-October-25, 02:12, said:

I used all jumps as 5-5 GF, even after suit rebids.

(1♦-1♠
2♣-3♥ = 5-5 GF

1♣-1♥
1♠-3♦ = 5-5 GF)

I am happy when I can define my hand very quickly like this. I was confused by various other ways to show them. It makes sense to me to make them 5-5 and if you bid the suits more slowly you have less cards (5-4).

Obviously this pretty fairytale from this post will soon turn grim once you include the possibility of a 4M5m GF you might want to show.

with a 4M 5m gf you might start 1d over 1c and 2c over 1d.
That means gf and slam hands I can show but.....with less....

---


with the same shape and less, I might not be able to show it.

--


In any event at some point you start to get into memory strain if you try and fully define all the xyz sequences that will be pretty rare.

[gwnn]

Yea mike777 but the problem is when you want to use transfers, then it's almost certainly best to use

1♣-

1♦=4+♥
1♥=4+♠

1♠/1NT/2♣=some minor oriented hand, no 4 card major.

So then you'll have some issues.

[mike777]

fwiw Justin and Grue just had an xyz sequence that seemed pretty rare..


responder showed 5s and gf but balanced as a choice of games between 3nt and 4s I guess.


Justin put them into 4s which seems pretty normal.

----


I just think this shows how you can really get alot of auctions out of xyz if you can retain them.

---


fwiw huge imp swing in the play both tables in 4s.

[Free]

The COG 5M332 comes up quite often in my experience. I show it via ...-2♣-2♦-3NT.

[han]

 mike777, on 2011-October-25, 03:17, said:

fwiw Justin and Grue just had an xyz sequence that seemed pretty rare..


responder showed 5s and gf but balanced as a choice of games between 3nt and 4s I guess.

I don't think that they play XYZ, they only play 2-way checkback after 1D - 1M - 1NT. And this is not rare, it's one of the most common auctions.