[aguahombre]

TWO4BRIDGE, on 2011-October-14, 16:12, said:

Anybody who is anybody DENIES a 4 card major with an inverted minor raise.

Don't be so sure of that. You deny a major, I deny a major. Several decent players don't deny one.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

aguahombre, on 2011-October-14, 16:41, said:

Don't be so sure of that. You deny a major, I deny a major. Several decent players don't deny one.

I have a feeling this topic has been discussed and rediscussed many times.

Here is a quote from a respected expert ( another Message Board from 2005 ):

"1D-2D! denies a 4-card major and ... there is NO REASON to play it otherwise.
If you play it could have a 4-card major, then you will confuse the auction trying to checkback for a 4-4 major fit.
Whereas, if you have a 4-card major, you bid it first, and if no fit is found, use 4th Suit GF and next raise Opener's minor to establish the minor suit fit. You will probably still be at a lower level than ( you would ) otherwise. So, it is counter productive to allow the single raise to have a 4-card major."

[TWO4BRIDGE]

Cyberyeti, on 2011-October-14, 16:10, said:

Not everybody denies a 4M by using the inverted raise, we certainly don't. 1♦-2♦-2♠-3♠ has just found our 4-4 spade fit.

Are you sure it is a 4-4 fit ?
Opener may only be bidding "stoppers" up-the-line on the 2-level.
If Opener is required to have a 4 card Major to bid 2M, what does he do on the 2-level without a 4 card major ? Normally, 2NT would show stops in BOTH majors.

[Hanoi5]

aguahombre, on 2011-October-14, 11:30, said:

It is wrong if your partner doesn't. Otherwise, it is just what you do, in the context of your other methods.

How smart! So if we play the 4NT opening as a balanced 4-6 hand that's correct as long as partner plays the same? Wow!

I meant to ask whether it is a good and sensible approach that'll lead to good results. After 1♦-4♣, for example, opener can only sign-off in 4♦ or 4NT. The idea of splinters over a minor suit opening was to get to a slam, not to play a game (usually). So what is standard? What's better? By the way, I've never had a splinter hand over a minor suit opening...

[Flem72]

Hanoi5, on 2011-October-14, 19:55, said:

By the way, I've never had a splinter hand over a minor suit opening...

Only one I remember:

AQx
Qxx
Qxxx
Kx

Kx
x
AKJTxx
Axxx

N opened 1D; I bid 3H; it went down.

Edit: To clarify: N passed 3H.

Regards and Happy Trails,

Scott Needham
Boulder, Colorado, USA

This post has been edited by Flem72: 2011-October-15, 05:59

[Cyberyeti]

TWO4BRIDGE, on 2011-October-14, 17:18, said:

Are you sure it is a 4-4 fit ?
Opener may only be bidding "stoppers" up-the-line on the 2-level.
If Opener is required to have a 4 card Major to bid 2M, what does he do on the 2-level without a 4 card major ? Normally, 2NT would show stops in BOTH majors.

Of course I am, we don't bid stoppers, a suit is a suit.

We play a weak no trump, so either he opened a weak no trump or he bids 2N (15+ bal after which bids are stops) or 3♣ (no extras guaranteed 5-4) or 3♦ 6 diamonds weak.

As an aside over 1♣-2♣ we play 2♦ as the ask which makes handling 4M even easier.

[gordontd]

Flem72, on 2011-October-14, 21:36, said:

Only one I remember:

AQx
Qxx
Qxxx
Kx

Kx
x
AKJTxx
Axxx

N opened 1D; I bid 3H; it went down.

Regards and Happy Trails,

Scott Needham
Boulder, Colorado, USA

Presumably you got an artificial adjusted score because of the misboard?

[gordontd]

TWO4BRIDGE, on 2011-October-14, 17:14, said:

I have a feeling this topic has been discussed and rediscussed many times.

Here is a quote from a respected expert ( another Message Board from 2005 ):

"1D-2D! denies a 4-card major and ... there is NO REASON to play it otherwise.
If you play it could have a 4-card major, then you will confuse the auction trying to checkback for a 4-4 major fit.
Whereas, if you have a 4-card major, you bid it first, and if no fit is found, use 4th Suit GF and next raise Opener's minor to establish the minor suit fit. You will probably still be at a lower level than ( you would ) otherwise. So, it is counter productive to allow the single raise to have a 4-card major."

It's entirely playable in a weak-NT system (because a 2NT rebid is game-forcing) to allow a 4cM in a forcing minor-suit raise.

That you produce a six-year-old quotation from an un-named expert from an un-named place doesn't alter this.

[FrancesHinden]

TWO4BRIDGE, on 2011-October-14, 17:14, said:

I have a feeling this topic has been discussed and rediscussed many times.

Here is a quote from a respected expert ( another Message Board from 2005 ):

"1D-2D! denies a 4-card major and ... there is NO REASON to play it otherwise.
If you play it could have a 4-card major, then you will confuse the auction trying to checkback for a 4-4 major fit.
Whereas, if you have a 4-card major, you bid it first, and if no fit is found, use 4th Suit GF and next raise Opener's minor to establish the minor suit fit. You will probably still be at a lower level than ( you would ) otherwise. So, it is counter productive to allow the single raise to have a 4-card major."

Let me paraphrase this quote: If you play it could have a 4-card major you will confuse the auction if you don't have solid agreements.
It's facile to say you can "use 4th suit GF" because (i) after, say, 1C - 1H - 2C there isn't a fourth suit and you have to invent another suit first, and (ii) after, say, 1D - 1S - 2C - 2H you might be lucky and partner bids at a minimum level, but even then you haven't distinguished between 3-card and 4-card diamond support. Or after 1C - 1H - 1NT, how do you tell partner you have 5-card club support easily?

FWIW we play that: 1m - 3M is a void splinter (it doesn't come up much, but it's useful when it does, and the pre-emptive 3M bid is also pretty rare)
We play that an inverted raise can have a 4-card major if responder is potentially interested in slam, particularly with 5-card support for the minor.

We don't have the problem that we "don't know" if we have a fit, because we don't bid stoppers up the line - this has always struck me as a pretty stupid method. We play 1C - 2C - 2D as artificial, including all weak NTs (with artificial continuations), and 1C - 2C - 2M as natural unbalanced.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

OK, OK....
I agree that whatever you play "you need solid agreements" as Frances said.

So, here is another quote -- this time from the "Coaches Corner" of Pitbulls ...but this one is in favor of your side of the argument:

"Some people play Inverted Minors DENIES a 4 card major. This is wrong , very WRONG. If you want to force to game and have 5 or more of partners suit , make an inverted minor rather than bid your 4 card major. No amount of arguments will ever convince me you can play “catch up “ to describe hands like xx AKxx AKxxx xx when you respond a heart to a partners diamond opener. You must go into contortions with 4th suit forcing and partner never gets a clear picture of your hand. Result usually is 3NT instead of +1370."

[kenrexford]

FrancesHinden, on 2011-October-15, 04:09, said:

Let me paraphrase this quote: If you play it could have a 4-card major you will confuse the auction if you don't have solid agreements.
It's facile to say you can "use 4th suit GF" because (i) after, say, 1C - 1H - 2C there isn't a fourth suit and you have to invent another suit first, and (ii) after, say, 1D - 1S - 2C - 2H you might be lucky and partner bids at a minimum level, but even then you haven't distinguished between 3-card and 4-card diamond support. Or after 1C - 1H - 1NT, how do you tell partner you have 5-card club support easily?

FWIW we play that: 1m - 3M is a void splinter (it doesn't come up much, but it's useful when it does, and the pre-emptive 3M bid is also pretty rare)
We play that an inverted raise can have a 4-card major if responder is potentially interested in slam, particularly with 5-card support for the minor.

We don't have the problem that we "don't know" if we have a fit, because we don't bid stoppers up the line - this has always struck me as a pretty stupid method. We play 1C - 2C - 2D as artificial, including all weak NTs (with artificial continuations), and 1C - 2C - 2M as natural unbalanced.

I cannot agree with this paragraph more. The idiot idea of stoppers up-the-line implies somehow that agreement on a minor means that we are headed to 3NT, period, as long as we have stoppers. That's so mundane. As a result, in a discussed partnership, I do something very similar. Waitings with many hands, bids with unbalanced hands, etc. Makes finding major fits very plausible.

[JLOGIC]

BUT WHAT ABOUT STOPPERS?????????

[TWO4BRIDGE]

JLOGIC, on 2011-October-15, 06:42, said:

BUT WHAT ABOUT STOPPERS?????????

Good question.

I don't know if the "modified" Inverted ( does NOT deny 4 cds M ) posters here play the Kokish version.

With Kokish, only ONE side of the table is allowed to explore for 4-4 fits -- namely the Responder.
That means the Opener can bid a Major suit "stopper" at the 2-level, suppressing for the moment that he may have a 4 card Major.
- - - - - - - - - - - -
EDIT:
@ Ken.... Why don't you tells us how you really feel about showing stoppers "up-the-line " .

This post has been edited by TWO4BRIDGE: 2011-October-15, 07:46

[Cyberyeti]

TWO4BRIDGE, on 2011-October-15, 07:42, said:

Good question.

I don't know if the "modified" Inverted ( does NOT deny 4 cds M ) posters here play the Kokish version.

With Kokish, only ONE side of the table is allowed to explore for 4-4 fits -- namely the Responder.
That means the Opener can bid a Major suit "stopper" at the 2-level, suppressing for the moment that he may have a 4 card Major.
- - - - - - - - - - - -
EDIT:
@ Ken.... Why don't you tells us how you really feel about showing stoppers "up-the-line " .

We certainly don't. Some auctions are clearly stops eg 1♦-2♦-2♠-3♥ is a heart stop with no club stop as opener denied 4 hearts when he bid 2♠, but most of the time suits are natural.

[gnasher]

I agree with Ken.

(I agree with Frances too, but that seems rather less noteworthy.)

[FrancesHinden]

JLOGIC, on 2011-October-15, 06:42, said:

BUT WHAT ABOUT STOPPERS?????????

Don't tell anyone, but with a balanced 13-count opposite a balanced 13-count and no 8-card major suit fit, we're usually prepared to try 3NT without confirming we have every suit stopped first.
I sometimes open 1NT without every suit stopped too.

[kenrexford]

Stoppers are for losers.

Actually, I find some auctions rather humorous...

Opener: I have diamonds.
Responder: Me too.
Opener: Let's see what the opponents should lead. I think a heart would be a bad idea for them.
Responder: I think a club might be a bad idea; I'm thinking they should lead a spade.
Opener: I have a partial stopper in spades -- what exact honor should they lead to kill your spade ten?
Responder: Maybe try the Jack as a surrounding play?

[jmcw]

kenrexford, on 2011-October-15, 16:10, said:

Stoppers are for losers.

Actually, I find some auctions rather humorous...

Opener: I have diamonds.
Responder: Me too.
Opener: Let's see what the opponents should lead. I think a heart would be a bad idea for them.
Responder: I think a club might be a bad idea; I'm thinking they should lead a spade.
Opener: I have a partial stopper in spades -- what exact honor should they lead to kill your spade ten?
Responder: Maybe try the Jack as a surrounding play?

OK try this
1♦ I have ♦
2♦ Me too.
3NT I'm more or less balanced
P
Down 3 and we're cold for 5♦

P.S. Splinter

[the hog]

TWO4BRIDGE, on 2011-October-14, 16:12, said:

Anybody who is anybody DENIES a 4 card major with an inverted minor raise.

NO this is not correct. While for me it certainly does deny a 4 card M, I have played against a number of very good pairs for whom it does not.
Btw. In answer to the original question - splinter for me.

[kenrexford]

jmcw, on 2011-October-15, 17:55, said:

OK try this
1♦ I have ♦
2♦ Me too.
3NT I'm more or less balanced
P
Down 3 and we're cold for 5♦

P.S. Splinter

OK, try this:

1NT (I'm more or less balanced)
3NT (me too)

Down 3 and we're cold for 5♦.