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Notrump Rebids In ACOL

#1 User is offline   pbleighton 

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Posted 2003-May-24, 08:28

Assume 1 NT = 11-14, 2 NT= 20-21, cheapest NT rebid = 15-17, jump rebid = 18-19:

1) In Standard Amercan, I am used to a 1 NT bid being a catchall weak rebid, usually balanced but not always. But in ACOL, if you have a 2425 13 hcp hand, and the bidding goes 1C-P-1S-P-?, must you rebid a possibly weak club suit, or bid 2 diamonds, because you can't reverse and 1 NT would be a serious lie?
2) To avoid rebid problems with minimum openers, would you frequently/sometimes/never:
a) With a minimum 54 where the 5 card suit was lower ranking and weaker, bid the 4 card suit.
B) Open 5422s 1 NT where the 5 card suit was lower ranking, weakish, and a minor.
3) How likely are you to rebid NT with a 5422 shape, when you have 15-17 hcp and your suit rebid is unattractive?
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#2 User is offline   Laird 

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Posted 2003-May-28, 07:00

Hello pb...

I'm surprised at the lack of response to your questions regarding Acol bidding.
As I am no expert I can only give a reflection from my limited experience! Perhaps some Acol expert may take up the baton after my feeble attempt.

Point 1 .. I play 12 -14nt
you do not state the composition of your 13hcp hand nor vulnerability.
For instance
I can imagine a hand thus
s Kx
h Ajxx
d jx
c KJxxx
I would open that 1h (4 card suit) not 1C.
The bidding would be 1h p 1s (maybe1nt or 2c) as new suit at 1 level = 6+pts. Partner would suspect misfit and leave 2c or show any undeclared strength eg d's or heart fit or extra spades.

2 (a) ans see above
(:D with 5422 13hcp I'm more likely to bid a suit probably 5card first but to avoid a reverse then 4...

3 Open longest major and depending on short suit card eg stoppers and response from partner and opponents maybe take on nt.

As I understand it( Crowhurst and Kambites) the permissible shape for nt are 4333, 4432, and 5332 if the 5 carder is a minor.... so I guess your hypothetical questions are not suited to Acol weak nt openings.... but hopefully some expert will throw more light on the subject!

Kind regards
John :-)
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#3 User is offline   Laird 

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Posted 2003-May-29, 00:58

Oops....NT REBIDS!

Sorry :-[

As I understand it from -TERRY'S BIDDING TIPS- SHAPE is important and in NT it must be balanced or compensated by partners hand for imbalance.
Suits should contain;
3 cards,
be a suit bid by partner,
have stops of opposition suits - 4cards should be sufficient.

Regarding worthless doubletons if you have enough points for game then good chance that partners hand will cover weakness.

Rather than me rabbit on look in -
http://www.quornloug...,uk/notrump.htm

Sorry about mix up.
John
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#4 User is offline   Cave_Draco 

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Posted 2003-July-05, 11:17

P asked me to post this... ;D.

The other day, I opened 1C on

S ... K J 9 6
H ... Q T 7
D ... K 6 3
C ... A K T

Opps were silent, the bidding went 1C-1D-1NT

The question was "Why did I not bid 1S?"

My answer was, that to bid Spades would show distribution that I don't have!
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#5 User is offline   EricK 

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Posted 2003-July-05, 13:21

Quote

P asked me to post this... ;D.

The other day, I opened 1C on

S ... K J 9 6
H ... Q T 7
D ... K 6 3
C ... A K T

Opps were silent, the bidding went 1C-1D-1NT

The question was "Why did I not bid 1S?"

My answer was, that to bid Spades would show distribution that I don't have!


In traditional Acol (variable NT, 4 card majors, light 2/1 bids) this is a 1S opening, of course. One only opened a prepared Club when playing a strong No Trump (i.e. when vulnerable). e.g make the CK into the C2 in your hand. This is because there would be no sensible rebid if partner made a 2/1 bid.

Eric
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#6 User is offline   EricK 

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Posted 2003-July-05, 13:30

Quote

Assume 1 NT = 11-14, 2 NT= 20-21, cheapest NT rebid = 15-17, jump rebid = 18-19:

1) In Standard Amercan, I am used to a 1 NT bid being a catchall weak rebid, usually balanced but not always. But in ACOL, if you have a 2425 13 hcp hand, and the bidding goes 1C-P-1S-P-?, must you rebid a possibly weak club suit, or bid 2 diamonds, because you can't reverse and 1 NT would be a serious lie?
2) To avoid rebid problems with minimum openers, would you frequently/sometimes/never:
a) With a minimum 54 where the 5 card suit was lower ranking and weaker, bid the 4 card suit.
:) Open 5422s 1 NT where the 5 card suit was lower ranking, weakish, and a minor.
3) How likely are you to rebid NT with a 5422 shape, when you have 15-17 hcp and your suit rebid is unattractive?



When playing Acol, the question you should keep asking yourself is "What single bid does most to describe my hand?".

If my hand looks like a NT hand eg strong doubletons/weak long suits then I will open or rebid 1NT

If my 5 card suit is respectable, I will bid it and then rebid it if I can't mention my 4 card suit.

If my 4 card suit is strong I will bid it as long as I have a clear rebid over any response of partners.

This last point means that I will rarely start with the 4 card suit. eg in a 2-4-2-5 minimum hand, if you open 1H and partner rebids 2D you are stuck.

The dangers of rebidding weak 5 card suits are exaggerated. You will occasionally end up in a 5-1 fit at the two level, but often on those hands there was no good spot for you to play in anyway!

Eric
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#7 User is offline   DenisO 

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Posted 2003-July-06, 03:47

Quote

Quote

P asked me to post this... ;D.

The other day, I opened 1C on

S ... K J 9 6
H ... Q T 7
D ... K 6 3
C ... A K T

Opps were silent, the bidding went 1C-1D-1NT

The question was "Why did I not bid 1S?"

My answer was, that to bid Spades would show distribution that I don't have!


In traditional Acol (variable NT, 4 card majors, light 2/1 bids) this is a 1S opening, of course. One only opened a prepared Club when playing a strong No Trump (i.e. when vulnerable). e.g make the CK into the C2 in your hand. This is because there would be no sensible rebid if partner made a 2/1 bid.

Eric


In Modern Acol the variable NT is pretty well extinct . Weak NT (12-14) is the norm and this hand would be opened 1S with a mandatory NT rebid. Although Acol is a 4-cd major system most 1S openings show a 5-cd suit . The only exception is when opener rebids NT at appropriate level.
For anyone fairly new to Acol I would recommend "Understanding Acol" by Eric Crowhurst/Andrew Kambites. this is very good at explaining the logic of modern Acol bidding. You can pick up a second hand copy reasonably cheap at paul Laving's excellent site www.postfree.cc

Rgds
Denis :)
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#8 User is offline   Cave_Draco 

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Posted 2003-July-06, 12:11

A clarification, ;D.

The question, i think, was less about the "prepared Club" opening than about my rebid...

Having opened 1C, with the intention of rebidding 1NT, I felt that to change my mind & bid 1S would have implied a disributional hand.

The reasons for opening 1C rather than 1S?
Traditionally, with 4-4 in the black suits, Acol opens 1C; therefore, I have not denied a 4-card Spade suit.
If the bidding goes 1S-2S-? do I really want to bid 2NT?
My Club holding is good enough to cope with an Inverted Minor response, it's almost a 4-card suit, :).

Is the "prepared Club" also dead? I reserve it for, specifically, 4-3-3-3 & 15+; not a VERY common hand but one which is awkward to describe.

P.S. I did start reading Crowhurst/Kambites... It's no longer "West Hampstead" Acol, :).
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#9 User is offline   DenisO 

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Posted 2003-July-06, 14:13

Quote

A clarification, ;D.

The question, i think, was less about the "prepared Club" opening than about my rebid...

Having opened 1C, with the intention of rebidding 1NT, I felt that to change my mind & bid 1S would have implied a disributional hand.

The reasons for opening 1C rather than 1S?
Traditionally, with 4-4 in the black suits, Acol opens 1C; therefore, I have not denied a 4-card Spade suit.
If the bidding goes 1S-2S-? do I really want to bid 2NT?
My Club holding is good enough to cope with an Inverted Minor response, it's almost a 4-card suit, :).

Is the "prepared Club" also dead? I reserve it for, specifically, 4-3-3-3 & 15+; not a VERY common hand but one which is awkward to describe.

P.S. I did start reading Crowhurst/Kambites... It's no longer "West Hampstead" Acol, :).


Hi I'm afraid if you're playing a prepared club for 4333 and 15+, then you are just not playing Acol - "West Hampstead or any other variety" :)
In Acol if you are 4333 and 12-14 you bid 1NT; if 15+ then you bid the 4 cd suit and rebid NT if possible

On the original hand if the bidding goes 1S - 2S , you just pass, as partner may have only 6 pts. To rebid 2NT after 1S-2S you need 17/18 - just like 1S -1NT - 2NT, ie invitational.

Denis
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#10 User is offline   Orla 

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Posted 2003-July-06, 16:33

Quote


The other day, I opened 1C on

S ... K J 9 6
H ... Q T 7
D ... K 6 3
C ... A K T

Opps were silent, the bidding went 1C-1D-1NT

The question was "Why did I not bid 1S?"

My answer was, that to bid Spades would show distribution that I don't have!


The logic: "to bid Spades would show distribution that I don't have!" Baffles me.

If P opens 1NT, with a 4-card major, hearts and/or spades you bid Stayman immediately to find the major fit.

Bidding in Acol allows 4-card major opening bids. Draco has a 4 3 3 3 hand but too strong for a weak NT opening. Draco "hides" the fact that he has a 4-card major and bids the "prepared" club. On the re-bid he again "denies" the 4-card major by bidding NT.

Why?

Orla
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#11 User is offline   the hog 

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Posted 2003-July-06, 18:21

Easy answer Orla. A strong player will look at "hand type. " There are balanced, semi balanced and unbalanced hands. Balanced are 5332s/4333s and 4432s. Semi balanced are 5422s 6322s. It is important to show hand type. Thus on this hand the dragon had a flat hand - treat is as such and either open (if it is in your NT range), or else rebid NT.

To open 1C and rebid 1S shows 5C and 4S, (I know Cave D would do this with 4-4 but we wouldn't). So you say "I will miss a 4-4 S fit". Maybe if responder is weak. So what? The hand may well play better in 1NT anyway - particularly in this case as you are 4333. If resp is stronger you can always find a S fit with checkback.

Isnt it nice to know that opener really has 2 suits, so that you can give preference to the 1st suit?

Consider
K J 9 6
Q T 7
K 6 3
A K T

As opposed to
KJ9x
Qx
Kx
AKXXX

If you rebid 1S with both of these hands what is responder meant to do with a weak hand and long Cs? Pass and find opener with hand 2, or bid 2C and then find opener with hand 1. Regardless of what system you are playing, one of the best ways of determining the strength of a pick up pd is what they would rebid after opening 1C and holding a 4333 shape.

One last point - playing Acol I have no objection to a 1S opening. You have a clear cut pass if responder raises you to 2S or bids 1NT, and you have an easy 2NT bid over 2m.
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#12 User is offline   Brendan Conlon 

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Posted 2005-September-14, 07:10

The 1H is a heresy, even if it looks attractive. You don't have a sensible re-bid.
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Posted 2005-September-14, 09:34

to answer the original question, can't you just open 1N with a 2425 13?
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#14 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2005-September-14, 11:26

While I do not play Acol (I did play a rudimentary, old-style acol a long, long time ago), I have a lot of experience with 11-14 1N opening bids.

However, that is in the context of 5 card majors, so my comments on 5422 hands (longer minor) are perhaps suspect in a 4-card major context.

5422 hands can usefully be grouped into 4225/4252/2425/2452.

With the 4225, there is no rebid problem after opening 1, so a 1N opening on this shape would be unusual: maybe a hand with virtually no hcp in the blacks and both reds stopped.

With the 4252, a lot depends on your agreements over 1 2. That is not gf in acol (as I recall) and I do not know the standard acol treatment of this theoretically interesting sequence. (My suspicion is that far too few partnerships have adequate agreements on this one anyway, regardless of overall method).

If you have adequate treatments, then you should have no fear of a 2 response to your 1, and can therefore avoid 1N openings except, as above, on hands with weak long suits and strong short suits. You can, on the more common hands in which your long suits are the stronger, open 1 and rebid 1 over 1.

The more challenging holdings are those with 4 card suits, since the frequent 1 response poses a problem.

Once again, I feel that you ought not to be dogmatic: look at the hand. Some hands will be better described by 1N. Others will be better described by a 2 rebid.

Most would, for me, be 1N.

However, methods count. For example, I like two way stayman over weak notrumps, with transfer methods reserved for strong nt openings. Playing 2 as an artificial game force response to 1N allows for considerable detail to be conveyed by opener, including possession of 2=4=2=5 shape (or 2=4=5=2, etc).

Transfer methods allow responder to describe his hand while 2 way stayman allows opener to describe his. Game-going hands, opp weak notrumps, are roughly equivalent in playing value to the opener, so captaincy issues are not especially germane. However, opener has already begun the description with the limited 1N bid, so it makes sense, in terms of conservation of bidding space, to have responder as the captain. In slam sequences, responder will be significantly stronger, with more 'information' to give. Thus it makes good sense for responder to do the asking: opener hads less 'information' to give and hence can more readily convey all of that information at a reasonable level than can responder.

Conversely, with strong NT, responder will be weaker, often significantly weaker, than opener on game hands and thus it makes sense for rsponder to convey his information to opener. On slams, the hands are likely to be roughly equivalent. 2 way stayman (or better, relay, methods) are better for slam purposes, but they are less frequent than game hands, so transfers are, on balance, better than 2 way stayman. I know, this is all off topic, but I just got going...and could not stop :lol:
We have had a recent thread discussing the risks of opening and rebidding a 5 card suit, in the context of 4=5 minor suit holdings, and the concerns about a 5-1 (or 5-0) fit remain valid (altho I was and remain in the 1 opening school).
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#15 User is offline   1eyedjack 

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Posted 2005-September-15, 00:07

I am more than happy to open 1N with 2-4-2-5 or 2-4-5-2 shape. Cuts out the 1S overcall as well as rebid problems after 1S response.

4-2-5-2 and 4-2-2-5 are less easy to justify, and the margin of benefit is reduced, but I would still open them 1NT normally if in range. I think Kantar, or Kokish, or Kehela or someone like that beginning with K wrote a few articles about it in Bridge World some years ago. I have no chance of finding the reference now, sorry.
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#16 User is offline   Echognome 

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Posted 2005-September-15, 09:58

I asked this question to a couple of veteran English players and here's the response I received.

With two touching suits in the older versions of Acol, you can bid the shorter one if it's stronger, so that you have a safe rebid. Thus with 2-4-5-2, you can open 1 and rebid 2. This applies also to 4-5-2-2 or 2-2-4-5 (not wanting to spark that debate again). One guy also gave me what he called the "classic" 4-3-5-1 which he suggests should be opened 1. This leaves you a good rebid no matter what responder does (2 after 1NT or 2 and you can raise 2 to 3 as it must promise 5 hearts).

As per the two non-touching suits, the "system" bid is 1 rebidding 2. So with 2-4-2-5 you open 1 and rebid 2 over 1. You obviously bid 1 over 1 and raise hearts if they are bid. Likewise with 4-2-5-2 you would open 1 and bid 2 over 2.

Note with modern Acol there are many different treatments. Some bid 4 card suits "up the line" and others bid majors first always. In Robson's bridge columns he even suggests not playing any reverses! Solves the shape problem, but not sure what he suggests for the strength problem.
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#17 User is offline   MickyB 

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Posted 2005-September-15, 11:52

That version of Acol is nearly as old as this thread! Think it is accepted by all that it is more important to show 5 cards in your first suit when you bid your second one, particularly when the 2nd suit is being bid at the two level. IMO it is usually right to open 1N on 2452, a lot of the time on 2425, rarely on 4252 and hardly ever on 4225.
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#18 User is offline   Wackojack 

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Posted 2005-September-15, 16:46

MickyB, on Sep 15 2005, 12:52 PM, said:

That version of Acol is nearly as old as this thread! Think it is accepted by all that it is more important to show 5 cards in your first suit when you bid your second one, particularly when the 2nd suit is being bid at the two level. IMO it is usually right to open 1N on 2452, a lot of the time on 2425, rarely on 4252 and hardly ever on 4225.

Amen to that! As an Acol player this is the first post I recognise.

Also Quote Mikeh:

With the 4252, a lot depends on your agreements over 1♦ 2♣. That is not gf in acol (as I recall) and I do not know the standard acol treatment of this theoretically interesting sequence. (My suspicion is that far too few partnerships have adequate agreements on this one anyway, regardless of overall method). Unquote

In Acol I believe that if you choose to open with 1 with 12HCP and 4252 shape (because the high cards are concentrated in spades and diamonds), then if pd responds 2 you would rebid 2. This is because pd will always bid a 4-card spade suit if he has one. pd with less than a gf with 4 spades and 5 clubs, will respond 1 so a 4-4 fit wont be missed. The worst case scenario is pd with 3334 or 3325 good double stop in hearts and 10 or 11 HCP, so possibly playing better in no trumps. (1NT response is limited to 6-9 so that a balanced 16 can be raised to 2NT) So pd with 10 or a poorish 11 may be stretching too much if he corrects to 2NT.

But then does not 2/1 15-17 NT with a forcing 1NT response also have this problem?
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#19 User is offline   1eyedjack 

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Posted 2005-September-16, 10:48

Wackojack, on Sep 15 2005, 11:46 PM, said:

pd with less than a gf with 4 spades and 5 clubs, will respond 1 so a 4-4 fit wont be missed.

I believe that in standard Acol the sequence 1D-2C-2D-2S is forcing but not GF. Responder would only respond 1S on a 4 card suit in preference to 2C on a longer suit if lacking values to force beyond 2S, in standard, but that does not require GF.

As to the balance of that post, personally I think that it concentrates rather on the presence of a prepared rebid in an uncontested auction without considering the benefits of having opened 1NT if the auction were otherwise to become contested ... an outcome which I reckon is frankly more likely than not, on those hands where it makes a difference which suit you open.
Psych (pron. saik): A gross and deliberate misstatement of honour strength and/or suit length. Expressly permitted under Law 73E but forbidden contrary to that law by Acol club tourneys.

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#20 User is offline   FrancesHinden 

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Posted 2005-September-20, 08:13

1eyedjack, on Sep 16 2005, 11:48 AM, said:

As to the balance of that post, personally I think that it concentrates rather on the presence of a prepared rebid in an uncontested auction without considering the benefits of having opened 1NT if the auction were otherwise to become contested ... an outcome which I reckon is frankly more likely than not, on those hands where it makes a difference which suit you open.

I'm not sure if you think having opened 1NT on a 5422 (in some order) is a good thing, or a bad thing if the auction becomes contested.

Given that the auction is contested, I would rather have opened my longest suit on an unbalanced hand.

Note the conditional probability here: I agree it is less likely that the auction will be contested if I open 1NT.
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