[1eyedjack]

Scoring: IMP

Uncontested
W....E
1♠...2♥
4♣...4♥
P

---

4C was splinter
Assign the blame?

[inquiry]

1eyedjack, on Oct 4 2004, 07:06 PM, said:

Scoring: IMP

Uncontested
W....E
1♠...2♥
4♣...4♥
P

---

4C was splinter
Assign the blame?

Was 2♥ game forcr? I will assume so.West hand is all top winners, there is no rush to show spliner. He has frist or second round control in every suit. I would start with 3♥, set trump, slam try.

IF EW playing serious 3NT, over 3H, east bids 3NT = no spade control, but slam interest, ... let s follow the auction

1S 2H
3H 3N (3N = eerious 3NT, no spade control, slam interest)
4C 4D (4C = confirm spade control, promise first or second round club control, 4D = last train,neutral on diamond control, still slam interest)
4N 5H
6H
Pass

I don't blame EAST at all. I give 100% to WEST. Just because you can splinter doesn't mean you should splinter.

[1eyedjack]

We were playing a sort of Acol with weak 1NT opener and 4 card majors.
2H was not GF, but any rebid by opener beyond 2S would have been GF.

Out of interest, swap East's Spades and Diamonds, and do you stop out of slam?

[luke warm]

the 'rule of 26' says that if partner splinters add your points to his supposed playing points of 13... if the total is 26, look for slam (maybe that's rule of 28, lol)... either way, with the east hand i'm looking for slam after the splinter

[inquiry]

1eyedjack, on Oct 4 2004, 07:21 PM, said:

Out of interest, swap East's Spades and Diamonds, and do you stop out of slam?

No.. probably not. So you will need to find the diamond ACE on side... or the doubleton queen of spades

ben

[pclayton]

1eyedjack, on Oct 4 2004, 03:21 PM, said:

We were playing a sort of Acol with weak 1NT opener and 4 card majors.
2H was not GF, but any rebid by opener beyond 2S would have been GF.

Out of interest, swap East's Spades and Diamonds, and do you stop out of slam?

AKQ opposite a stiff isn't always a big negative; frequently, the other two clubs can be used to pitch diamonds. Give West Axx of diamonds for instance,and these two hands produce a grand.

100% blame to East; since 3♥ presumably wouldn't be forcing, so 4♣ does promise extras.

[Fluffy]

If you blame East, what do you think he should bid? he hasn´t got any bidable control (At least to me 5♣ doesn´t show cotrol).

[EricK]

East is to blame.

West has made a slam try, and East has a lot more than he has promised. The ♣AKQ are good (but not great) cards as they provide 2 (or 3) discards opposite partner's shortage. The doubleton ♠ is good (much better than eg 3 small would have been). And the trumps are good.

Eric

[luke warm]

Fluffy, on Oct 5 2004, 01:51 PM, said:

If you blame East, what do you think he should bid? he´s got any bidable control (At least to be 5♣ doesn´t show cotrol).

i personally don't blame east, i just said that if i held the hand i'd look for slam... i'd bid 4nt

[gabika73]

It all depends on the system and arsenal we use for such auctions. (One usually cannot assign the blame unless knows the meanings of the bids, and the available alternatives...)

If 2♥ was GF, West must bid 3♥, no matter what. Especially if there is no Last Train after her splinter: slam is probably good without a ♦ control from partner.

The same applies if 3♥ commits partnership to game.

However, if 3♥ is invitational only, West does a good job with splintering.
With the jump, however, things become too difficult. If playing LTTC (which is hard to imagine for a pair that can pass 3♥ here... ), East can show her interest here.

If not, all she can do is (in order of my preference):
- try 4nt (or 4♠), blackwood, assuming that partner must have the diam A, KQ for the splinter (or K will be behind A, or we'll guess right...)
- try 5♣, slam interest, denying diam + spade control.
- try 5♥, Lackwood

So, if 3♥ was available as a forcing raise, it is West to blame: even though her bid showed what she had, she failed to forsee her partner's problems.

If it was not, West, having a lot more than she could, signed off after partner's encouragement.

[gabika73]

inquiry, on Oct 4 2004, 11:17 PM, said:

IF EW playing serious 3NT, over 3H, east bids 3NT = no spade control, but slam interest, ... let s follow the auction

1S 2H
3H 3N  (3N = eerious 3NT, no spade control, slam interest)
4C 4D  (4C = confirm spade control, promise first or second round club control, 4D = last train,neutral on diamond control, still slam interest)
4N 5H
6H
Pass

I agree with Ben.

However, just to note how well Kickback would do the job here:
After 4N, responder was reluctant to show Q of trumps: 5♠ would push partnership to slam even though they might not belong there.
After 4♠, Kickback, however, 5♥ is just available to show 2+Q.

[Chamaco]

1eyedjack, on Oct 4 2004, 11:06 PM, said:

Scoring: IMP

Uncontested
W....E
1♠...2♥
4♣...4♥
P

---

4C was splinter
Assign the blame?

CASE 1: 2H is GF

If I recall correctly Fred's article on 2/1, he suggests playing splinter here as "well-defined", e.g. it should show missing diamonds controls.
Therefore, since we are in a force, better proceed slower by 3H and later use serious/frivolous 3NT to show interest.

CASE 2: 2H is NOT gf

In any case, I believe opener will risk very little using RKCB, when the number of ace and trump Q will be the needed info

[helium]

west is 100% to blame

[pclayton]

Fluffy, on Oct 5 2004, 03:51 AM, said:

If you blame East, what do you think he should bid? he hasn´t got any bidable control (At least to me 5♣ doesn´t show cotrol).

Its pretty hard to construct a west hand that doesn't have a ♦ control. So I'd just trot out RKCB. Kickback works exceptionally well here by the way.

[EricK]

helium, on Oct 5 2004, 03:33 PM, said:

west is 100% to blame

Could you elaborate?

Was his 4♣ bid an overbid or an underbid, in your opinion? Do you think he should have bid on over 4♥?

Eric

[inquiry]

EricK, on Oct 5 2004, 12:11 PM, said:

helium, on Oct 5 2004, 03:33 PM, said:

west is 100% to blame

Could you elaborate?

Was his 4♣ bid an overbid or an underbid, in your opinion? Do you think he should have bid on over 4♥?

Eric

I will take first shot at this.. 4♣ was a wrong bid... 3♥, set trump, give partner a chance to cue-bid the spade queen, give partner a chance to express slam interest with serious 3NT. There is no reason to hurry up the auction. You have first and second round control of ALL SUITS.. if partner shows any life at all, you can use blackwood. Save splinter for when it helps... here, there is no need to sue splinter.. .in fact, you have great chance for slam even if your partners club KQ are xx's. And even if partners hand was diamond ACE, and club KQJ.. how is he to judge? You are conveying the wrong information, imho.

I also agree that probably just raise then 4NT works out ok.

[hotShot]

Are you sure you p understood your bid as a splinter?

Even if he knew, the sequence 1♠-2♥ takes a lot of biddingspace.
Bidding a splinter takes away even more. A splitner leaves P 2 save bids, 4♦ and 4♥. He won't show ♣ Control, he won't show ♠control if he does not have the ♦ ace he has to try slam or stopn in 4♥.
You are strong enough to place e.g. a 3♦ or another strong delaying bid. If you bid 4♥ later your p should know much better what to expect.

[EricK]

Quote

I will take first shot at this.. 4♣ was a wrong bid... 3♥, set trump, give partner a chance to cue-bid the spade queen, give partner a chance to express slam interest with serious 3NT. There is no reason to hurry up the auction. You have first and second round control of ALL SUITS.. if partner shows any life at all, you can use blackwood. Save splinter for when it helps... here, there is no need to sue splinter.. .in fact, you have great chance for slam even if your partners club KQ are xx's. And even if partners hand was diamond ACE, and club KQJ.. how is he to judge? You are conveying the wrong information, imho.

Even if the splinter is wrong that doesn't mean West is 100% to blame.

West has made a slam try (surely you agree that a splinter is some sort of slam try), and East has signed off despite being eminently suitable for slam. So East must get some of the blame! But I would go further...

If the partnership is not playing serious 3NT or similar, it is very dangerous for opener to just bid 3♥. Suppose partner simply raises to 4♥ with ♠xx ♥AQxxx ♦Axx ♣xxx, are you going to bid on? Because if you are, partner may well have ♠Jxx ♥Axxxx ♦ x ♣KQJx.

And can West be sure that partner realises 3♠ should show the Q? Maybe partner will play that it shows delayed support (xxx).

If the pair have a lot of well defined agreements then maybe there are better bids than 4♣. But if they had those agreements then they would know who was to blame and they wouldn't have had to post the hand here!

But if they haven't got those agreements then what has happened is this: West has said "I have a hand which is suitable for slam in ♥, and I have a ♣ shortage. Are you interested?" and East has said "No". West was right in his description of his hand and East was wrong.

Eric

[inquiry]

Well, for once, I think Fred got it right in his 2/1 article Chamaco referred to... Fred said something like.. after a 2/1 GF response, a splinter bid 1) is not made with singleton ACE or void, and 2) Does not include first or second round control of the fourth suit.

Here the second of these requiremehts is violated.. the splinter comes in hand not as you change around responders hand, but as you change openers.. let's take a look... Give opener...

S-AKQJx H-KJxx D-xxx C-x now the splinter is perfect. IT places the emphasis right where it should bd, the need for a diamond control for slam. Bidding the slam opposite your first example (xx AQxxx Axx xxx) is a piece of cake when this splinter is used correctly. Opposite your second han d(Jxx Axxxx xx KQJx) facing a realistic club splinter, this hand has no choice but signoff.

And how does those hand fair opposite a the 3H bid? In both cases, probably would deny slam interest by cue-bidding their minor suit control. On the first one, when the diamond ACE is cue-bid, 4NT leads quickly to the slam. In the second, when over 4C cue-bid, opener will make another slam try with LTTC, and responder will bid 4H. After two negatives (first the 4C bid then the stop of 4H), I think south will best be advised to pass.

This type of splinters after a 2/1 GF also allows for picture jumps... chnge opener to AKQJx KJxx xx xx, he can leap to 4H to show no control in either side suit, if he likes (most would bid a tad bid more aggressively, but I think this 4H bid is probably correct).

As for how does opener know that 3♠ shows the queen? Well, here is the rules and the problem. 2♥ over 1♠ promised five, so 3♥ set the trump suit. In this case, I play 3♠ not as oh, forget about hearts, lets play spades, but rather as a cue-bid. In opener's suit, I cue-bid A, K or Q, but not shortness (At least at first opportunity). If you want to play 3♠ as suggesting an alteranative strain, I guess that is ok, but it s hould be in a huge hand... if you play 3♥ over 1♠ as fit jump (as I do).

The reason opener can not move over 4H is because responder may, in fact hold a hand like.... Jxx AQxxx xx KQJx. Should responder do more than signoff in 4H? Without a diamond control, I think he has no choice...

Ben

[badderzboy]

Dealer: West
Vul: None
Scoring: IMP
♠ AKxxx
♥ Kxxx
♦ KQx
♣ x

♠ xx
♥ AQxxx
♦ Jxx
♣ AKQ

Unfortunately I don't play some of the 'better' conventions but what does West & East know from the bidding about each other's hands.

As it's ACOL then

1S 4+ spades if 4 then 16+ balanced or else likely to be 4 (7- losers)
2H East has 5 Hearts and 10+ pts (8- losers)
4C splinter West has 5+ Spades 4+ Hearts 3- Diamonds and a low card Club so must have no more than 5/6 losers and most likely 5 given the slam interest as he can bid 4H as signoff?

West has show his shape and a good hand so East needs to take charge

For the splinter / slam try where are openers points He has at least 12 pts outside Hearts for the slam try as well so assuming he has the King Hearts it could be KQJ S KQ D JH minimum so...

I think 4H is an underbid here and as we know 3 of the losers and we can cover them - 1 Club loser covered by A Club & 2 Heart losers so where are the other two obviously spades and diamonds and we can cover the spade loser if it exists so Diamonds are the issue a 5C bid by East lays it on the line I have a good hand but no Diamond / spade control and West happily bids 6H?

I'm likely to be wrong but would appreciate where the flaws are in my thinking!

Steve