[aguahombre]

By overwhelming majority, we open OP hand 2C planning to rebid 2H if we can. Most methods can deal reasonably well with with that, even if partner or the opponents mess us up.

With Semeai's example, the overwhelming majority would open 2C but not have confidence that we could handle the follow-ups. It is close enough to our "rules", and we would have a worse time following up after a 1C start.

Neither of the two hands would be what I would use in a debate about whether it is "expert" to avoid opening 2C these days. That discussion might best be reserved for handling big two-suiters, but would be confused also by the fact that some players have better toys to handle 2-suiters (within or out of the 2C structure).

[semeai]

JLOGIC, on 2011-September-22, 09:25, said:

Are you implying that this is not a 2C opener?

I'd open the OP hand 2C certainly, but thought not for that one. I guess the auction will be better after 2C-2D;3C than after 1C.

Phil, on 2011-September-22, 09:32, said:

Perhaps the lesson is the avoid the use of 'always' in a forum post. Always

I'd open your hand 2♣ too. Unless you play Sabine's gadget, good luck to you after 1♣ - 1♠....

Cyberyeti's 2 suiter is a much more compelling example of why VM's 'rule' is wrong.

Yes, but 2-suiters are a known exception. I guess it just comes down to misuse of the word always.

If my suggested hand should in fact be opened 2C opener, then I'm fairly convinced of the 'rule' with obvious exceptions.

[JLOGIC]

I am not even opening 2C on the AK xx Ax AKxxxxx hand to avoid a bad rebid. The hand is worth 9 and a half tricks. To me I like opening 2C with that strong of a hand in order to be able to show a hand that strong. Even with methods after a 1C opener and a response to show a game forcing one suiter, you are still showing a hand weaker than you have being limited by your failure to open 2C. For slam purposes, that is probably bad.

The fact that it is good for rebid reasons also is just gravy.

[VM1973]

Phil, on 2011-September-21, 20:58, said:

AK AK Ax xxxxxxx?

2♣. WTP?

[VM1973]

Cyberyeti, on 2011-September-22, 01:51, said:

I think I understand what you mean (on non extreme distributions), but otherwise is x, AKxxx, void, AKxxxxx really a 2♣ opener, if so I hope you enjoy trying to bid it when the auction comes back at 5♦.

I hate it when my partner opens 5♦ and I have a 2♣ opener.

[Cyberyeti]

VM1973, on 2011-September-22, 14:08, said:

I hate it when my partner opens 5♦ and I have a 2♣ opener.

I was more thinking of (round the table) 2♣-3♦-P or 3♠-5♦, what do you bid now ?

[aguahombre]

So, I am hampered by competition; who isn't? Someone, pls explain why I have to find something to do with either OP's hand or the club hand other than double 5D and accept that they made life difficult. If I pass with the club hand, it is the same as bidding 6C (now or when partner respects the forcing pass); neither route really helping partner participate.

[ggwhiz]

I can open 2♣ alright but really want the lead coming up to me and pard will bid 2♥ with a bust. A reason to open 1♥? Might put pard on play in nt though.

I'm torn about bidding 2nt next, maybe just as a matchpoint swing? 3nt might be stolen opposite the J♥ and not much else.

I can often show a 5th ♥ if I go this route but it will probably blow up in my face.

So many dilema's, I vote "I don't know".

[aguahombre]

ggwhiz, on 2011-September-22, 14:56, said:

I can open 2♣ alright but really want the lead coming up to me and pard will bid 2♥ with a bust.

Agree with partner not to do that.

[Cyberyeti]

aguahombre, on 2011-September-22, 14:37, said:

So, I am hampered by competition; who isn't? Someone, pls explain why I have to find something to do with either OP's hand or the club hand other than double 5D and accept that they made life difficult. If I pass with the club hand, it is the same as bidding 6C (now or when partner respects the forcing pass); neither route really helping partner participate.

At least partner knows about a suit you hold (well they do when I open 1♣ as it is a real suit). Also IMO people go less ballistic over a natural 1♣ than they do over 2♣ largely for that reason.

[aguahombre]

At least if there is a barrage after my 2C opening, partner will have been able to pass or double to show at least some kind of control somewhere or no control.

[VM1973]

Cyberyeti, on 2011-September-22, 14:25, said:

I was more thinking of (round the table) 2♣-3♦-P or 3♠-5♦, what do you bid now ?

Ok look - I'm not saying that it can't happen. But I don't spend my life wondering how I'll bid every hand on the idea that it will probably be up to 5 of a minor by the time I get to make my 2nd bid. Sure, I'm void in diamonds, but that means the opponents probably have a 8- or 9-card fit that's breaking very badly for them. It doesn't mean they probably have 13 diamonds among them and that I must find one single bid to express my holding now.

Now I won't quibble with someone who opens the hand 1♣ and follows up with a ridiculous number of hearts - that could work well. It's just not my style.

[mikeh]

Despite being, usually, a proponent of very strong 2♣ openings, I'd open 2♣ here, even tho I play that my 3♥ bid over partner's feared 2♥ immediate negative response is forcing.

This hand is just too good to open at the one level, even for me.