[shevek]

---

Assume SAYC or Acol. (In 2/1, West had 3♦ forcing available over 2♦)
At the other table, West bid 3NT over 1♦ and was surprised to win 10 IMPs.

[ggwhiz]

2nt is an auto call after 2♣ - p - 2♦. If you are that afraid of ♥ you must look BOTH ways before you cross the street and sleep with a night light.

[shevek]

ggwhiz, on 2011-September-20, 21:21, said:

2nt is an auto call after 2♣ - p - 2♦. If you are that afraid of ♥ you must look BOTH ways before you cross the street and sleep with a night light.

Given 2♣ was not GF, 2NT over 2♦ would presumably be invitational.

[kayin801]

3NT over 3♠ should have given E an idea of what W's hand was like (not 4 spades, so must be worrying about hearts, otherwise would have just bid 3NT outright), so they could just leave it in. Blasting 3NT over 2♦ is a second choice, though I'm not a fan. 3♥/3♠ could show this kind of hand by agreement if you're willing to give up a splinter.

[aguahombre]

The auction at the other table was a practical one. It seems West at this table thought he was probing for notrump, and East thought West was showing clubs and a four-card spade fit. The blame? I guess it depends on whether they had talked about quite common 2/1 auctions such as this.

[nigel_k]

We can't really blame East. I think it is partly West and partly the methods.

Given your agreements I prefer 3NT with West instead of 4♦ and probably instead of 2♠ as well. But IMO it's better to have the agreement that 2♥ (cheapest forcing bid) is a purely artificial game force if you want to get scientific in this kind of auction. There is room to sort out stoppers later and when you bid 2♠ you really have them. If the major suits were reversed there is no problem when 2♥ is raised to 3♥ because there is still room for West to bid 3♠ fourth suit forcing.

[jdeegan]

West is a fraidy cat. When you have the values and the distribution for 3NT you just have to bid it. The ♥ could be 4-4 with no stop. Nothing in the West hand argues for a ♦ contract. The language of bridge bidding is too limited to offer 100% certainty.

[JLOGIC]

With Bob Hamman I played that 1D-2C-2D-2S-3N shows 4 spades and a heart stopper, to solve this exact problem.

[whereagles]

I have a simpler solution:

1D 2C
2D 3D <-- forcing

now you follow up with stoppers and it's easy. If you don't play 3D as forcing you're out of natural forcing bids and must either use some gadget, blast 3NT or fake a suit. In the actual case that faking led to trouble.

Lacking any methods I would definitely blast 3NT.

[aguahombre]

whereagles, on 2011-September-21, 03:37, said:

I have a simpler solution:

1D 2C
2D 3D <-- forcing

now you follow up with stoppers and it's easy. If you don't play 3D as forcing you're out of natural forcing bids and must either use some gadget, blast 3NT or fake a suit. In the actual case that faking led to trouble.

Lacking any methods I would definitely blast 3NT.

The last five words are the key. The "solution" is a slam start, not a method of probing for 3NT.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

shevek, on 2011-September-20, 20:47, said:

---

In 2/1 GF:
------- 1D
2C! - 2D ( Hardy style: 1st obligation is to rebid a 5+♦suit)
So far, so good...

?? Next is for Responder ( West ) to rebid a 4 card Major if he has one( using the 2-level to find a 4-4 fit ) ;
... With no 4 card Major, you must bid either 2/3NT, 3C or 3D ... whichever is most descriptive
Here, the least of evils is :
2NT ( Phillip Alder's [ Bridge columnist ] rule about stops in the unstopped suit: "That's what a partner is for " )

[Zelandakh]

Initial nonsense removed, sorry.

Justin (and Bob)'s gadget is nice but looks like it is designed for a 2/1 context. Otherwise we have no bid for some common hand types. On the hand West's 2S bid is fine but needs to be followed up by 3NT. 4D is totally off the wall here as I cannot see any reason why East cannot be holding 4=4=4=1 at this point in the auction and it is important for West to let East in on the joke major suit as quickly as possible.

[han]

JLOGIC, on 2011-September-21, 02:11, said:

With Bob Hamman I played that 1D-2C-2D-2S-3N shows 4 spades and a heart stopper, to solve this exact problem.

I played this with Arend Bayer.

Not playing this west should bid 3NT over 3S.

[whereagles]

aguahombre, on 2011-September-21, 04:38, said:

The last five words are the key. The "solution" is a slam start, not a method of probing for 3NT.

Slam start??? What would you call

1D 2C
2D 4D

then? A slam force?

[aguahombre]

whereagles, on 2011-September-21, 07:32, said:

Slam start??? What would you call

1D 2C
2D 4D

then? A slam force?

Minorwood. Or, an unneccessary jump in a forcing auction, wasting useful space.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

TWO4BRIDGE, on 2011-September-21, 05:31, said:

In 2/1 GF:
------- 1D
2C! - 2D ( Hardy style: 1st obligation is to rebid a 5+♦suit)
So far, so good...

?? Next is for Responder ( West ) to rebid a 4 card Major if he has one( using the 2-level to find a 4-4 fit ) ;
... With no 4 card Major, you must bid either 2/3NT, 3C or 3D ... whichever is most descriptive
Here, the least of evils is :
2NT ( Phillip Alder's [ Bridge columnist ] rule about stops in the unstopped suit: "That's what a partner is for " )

Continuing from post # 11 : 
In 2/1 GF:
------- 1D
2C! - 2D
2NT - 3H ( since Responder denied a 4 card major on the 2-level, Opener now shows Major suit              stop(s) on the 3-level... or 3NT himself )
3NT

[xxhong]

For natural system, it's often a good idea to bid a 3 card minor suit not a three card major suit. Early distortion of major holding can be very dangerous and difficult to recover.
If 2N is nonforcing, I think the system bid for west's hand has to be 3NT after 2D, showing good 12 to 16 HCPs.

shevek, on 2011-September-20, 20:47, said:

---

Assume SAYC or Acol. (In 2/1, West had 3♦ forcing available over 2♦)
At the other table, West bid 3NT over 1♦ and was surprised to win 10 IMPs.

[the hog]

shevek, on 2011-September-20, 20:47, said:

---

Assume SAYC or Acol. (In 2/1, West had 3♦ forcing available over 2♦)
At the other table, West bid 3NT over 1♦ and was surprised to win 10 IMPs.

Good hand for MAFIA, isn't it? 2S would now show values in S, and not ncessarily 4 of them. Anyway, I would bid 3NT over 3S and hope that partner passes.

[JLOGIC]

Zelandakh, on 2011-September-21, 06:05, said:

Initial nonsense removed, sorry.

Justin (and Bob)'s gadget is nice but looks like it is designed for a 2/1 context. Otherwise we have no bid for some common hand types. On the hand West's 2S bid is fine but needs to be followed up by 3NT. 4D is totally off the wall here as I cannot see any reason why East cannot be holding 4=4=4=1 at this point in the auction and it is important for West to let East in on the joke major suit as quickly as possible.

I think 2C then 2S should be game forcing whether or not 2C was (I usually play that 2C is not). It just makes the auction too hard if 2S does not promise 4, and is not game forcing. This means responding 1S with less than a game force which is not ideal but I think managable.

[Vampyr]

1D 2C
2D 4D

aguahombre, on 2011-September-21, 08:02, said:

Minorwood. Or, an unneccessary jump in a forcing auction, wasting useful space.

What forcing auction? In the OP, 2♦ was presumably nonforcing.