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Response to a take out double in balancing positi

#1 User is offline   Wackojack 

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Posted 2004-September-30, 16:59

My partner was sitting North with this hand against weak opponents
Scoring: IMP

The bidding went:
East South West North
1 pass 2 pass
pass dble pass ?

How many hearts should he bid? Noting the previous discussion what should he he expect from me as a minimum?
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#2 User is offline   inquiry 

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Posted 2004-September-30, 17:05

2 and hope to make it....

Ben
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#3 User is offline   Flame 

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Posted 2004-September-30, 17:14

Two
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#4 User is offline   pclayton 

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Posted 2004-September-30, 18:47

Wackojack, on Sep 30 2004, 02:59 PM, said:

My partner was sitting North with this hand against weak opponents
Dealer: East
Vul: N/S
Scoring: IMP
974
AK42
953
AK6
 

The bidding went:
East  South  West  North
1  pass    2  pass
pass  dble  pass      ?

How many hearts should he bid?  Noting the previous discussion what should he he expect from me as a minimum?

By "previous discussions about what he should expect from you as a minimum" doesn't apply here. It applies in auctions like 1 grape - pass - pass - double; where the balancer adds a queen and the responder subtracts a queen.

Partner can (and probably does) have a hand like: Axxx, Qxxx, xx, Qxx.

On Thursday, I had the following hand: Jxx, Jxxxxx, x, Jxx and heard the same auction as your example. Now, against a decent pair, I would balance with 2 in a flash, but these two play inverted minors with other partners, and I bet they missed it. Wrong! +140 in 2 versus -110 in 2. Partner has a soft 15 count.

By the way, I overcall 1 with your hand in a flash.
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#5 User is offline   bearmum 

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Posted 2004-September-30, 19:20

I would only bid 2 as I don't want to discourage P from balancing after this type of auction (we R red V Green after all)

I would think P is HOPING you have 8-10 points (he possibly has 8+ and few ---- and is unprepared to let opps play in 2 B)
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#6 User is offline   Wackojack 

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Posted 2004-October-01, 05:37

Wackojack, on Sep 30 2004, 05:59 PM, said:

My partner was sitting North with this hand against weak opponents
Dealer: East
Vul: N/S
Scoring: IMP
974
AK42
953
AK6
 

The bidding went:
East  South  West  North
1  pass    2  pass
pass  dble  pass      ?

How many hearts should he bid?  Noting the previous discussion what should he he expect from me as a minimum?


So the full deal was:
Scoring: IMP


and the full bidding went:
East South West North
1 pass 2 pass
pass dble pass 2
3 pass pass pass
duly going one off for +50 when an easy +650 was there for the taking.

It seems that we did not appreciate that our "weak" opponents had a 10 card fit in their suit. Neither of us could see that there were absolutely no wasted values in the way our hands fitted together. I don't think I had enough for a double over 1D at red and an overcall of 2H by partner looks gross. Then after I balance, partner's bid of 2H could be forced with wasted values in diamonds, so I don't want to bid on. Who was to blame or were we fixed by the opponents lack of ambition?
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#7 User is offline   mikestar 

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Posted 2004-October-01, 09:25

This really is a classic balancing position. In direct seat, I play "assume 8 points in partner's hand and bid what you thing you can make." In balancing seat, I play "assume 11 points . . ."

So you are playing partner to hold 11 points, and he has 14 HCP, with 6 controls and no wastage in diamonds. The flat shape is a negative, but his hand is much too good for 2H--he should bid 3H and you with your void and unusually good hand for the bidding have an easy continuation to game.

I agree with your not doubling the first round. While you have ample playing strength, your lack of HCP will be a nasty surprise for partner if he has the right cards for 3N.
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#8 User is offline   inquiry 

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Posted 2004-October-01, 09:40

Well, I have an alternative view on this one. Ok, passing over 1D with this hand is acceptable, but I admit I might double. And reopening with a double is also prefectly ok. But when your parnter bids 2H and RHO bids 3D (or even if he passes), you got to take a look at your hand.

you have ZAR fitting points of...
14 Distributional, 8 hcp, 2 control points, 2 pts for QT of hearts, and 3 points for the a void when supporting partners hearts. That totals 29 ZAR points, almost a full level more than an opening bid. In addition, from the bidding spade honors are more likely to be well placed than not, and thus are probably worth more than their normal face value.

So the mistake on this hand was not the 2 only bid, nor the initial pass over 1, imho, South has got to comeo out of the woodwork and bid 3 rather or not EAST passes... after all, south already knows his partner has some hcp, so now 3 is "safe".

Thus by bidding 2H you can get to game opposite a hand like this, and avoid going down, maybe doubled, in 3H oppsotie an hand like.. S-KJxx H-Qxx D-xx C-JTxxx

Ben
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#9 User is offline   junyi_zhu 

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Posted 2004-October-01, 13:56

Wackojack, on Sep 30 2004, 10:59 PM, said:

My partner was sitting North with this hand against weak opponents
Scoring: IMP

The bidding went:
East South West North
1 pass 2 pass
pass dble pass ?

How many hearts should he bid? Noting the previous discussion what should he he expect from me as a minimum?

you should double 2D. And it's a clearcut double because you have length in their suit and a very pure hand.Once you passed, you have no way to catch up anymore.
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#10 User is offline   Wackojack 

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Posted 2004-October-03, 04:57

Thanks for all your opinions. This is what I now think for what it is worth:

Scoring: IMP


East 1 South ?
South should pass because the lack of HCP will be a nasty surprise for partner if he bids 3NT

East 1 South pass West 2 North ?
North should pass. Double has a very high risk. For example, if partner has a weak or very weak 4324 shape it could go for -500 or even -800 against a possible -110 or at worst -400 if opponents are left to their own devices.

East 1 South pass West 2 North pass
East pass South ?
No question. Now it is safe to come in.

East 1 South pass West 2 North pass
East pass South double West pass North ?
If North bids 2 it will result in +110 when partner has a less shapely hand like KJxx, Qxxx, xx, Qxx. Most times, however, even opposite 8HCP at least +140 will be made, e.g. Axxx, Qxxx, xx, Qxx and of course opposite a more shapely hand +620 can be made. So the reward for the conservative bid of 2 is a certain part score against a risk of missing a vulnerable game if partner can do no more. The reward for the "risky" bid of 3 is a possible +620 agaist a risk of -100. Suppose now North does make the conservative bid of 2

East 1 South pass West 2 North pass
East pass South double West pass North 2
East 3 South ?

The risk for South in competing to 3 is that North might have something like: 10xx, Jxx, KQxx, Qxx. Remember North's bid was forced. So it looks like you are committing a capital offence in competing for a part score at red at the 3-level if you raise.

:rolleyes: So I agree with Mikestar that North should bid 3.
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#11 User is offline   junyi_zhu 

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Posted 2004-October-05, 12:05

Wackojack, on Oct 3 2004, 10:57 AM, said:

Thanks for all your opinions. This is what I now think for what it is worth:

Scoring: IMP


East 1 South ?
South should pass because the lack of HCP will be a nasty surprise for partner if he bids 3NT

East 1 South pass West 2 North ?
North should pass. Double has a very high risk. For example, if partner has a weak or very weak 4324 shape it could go for -500 or even -800 against a possible -110 or at worst -400 if opponents are left to their own devices.

East 1 South pass West 2 North pass
East pass South ?
No question. Now it is safe to come in.

East 1 South pass West 2 North pass
East pass South double West pass North ?
If North bids 2 it will result in +110 when partner has a less shapely hand like KJxx, Qxxx, xx, Qxx. Most times, however, even opposite 8HCP at least +140 will be made, e.g. Axxx, Qxxx, xx, Qxx and of course opposite a more shapely hand +620 can be made. So the reward for the conservative bid of 2 is a certain part score against a risk of missing a vulnerable game if partner can do no more. The reward for the "risky" bid of 3 is a possible +620 agaist a risk of -100. Suppose now North does make the conservative bid of 2

East 1 South pass West 2 North pass
East pass South double West pass North 2
East 3 South ?

The risk for South in competing to 3 is that North might have something like: 10xx, Jxx, KQxx, Qxx. Remember North's bid was forced. So it looks like you are committing a capital offence in competing for a part score at red at the 3-level if you raise.

:rolleyes: So I agree with Mikestar that North should bid 3.

The basic principle in bridge is that, the earlier you act, the safer you are. 1D p 2D x is no more dangerous than 1D p 2D p p x, and the latter auction is often more dangerous because opener has described his strength, thus he can make a lot of marginal doubles. Also, many don't even have the gadget to penalize you over 1D p 2D x, and even if you hear a redouble from him, that's not the end of the world, because your partner then can pass with weak spades and HQJx, you may play 2H and nobody can double you. Still, if you passed, you really have no way to show such a strong 14 HCP with no wastage in diamonds and super good controls. You can make a game vs as little as SKQx HQxxxx Dx Cxxxx and if you don't double, you'd never find such a good game. That's also why Barry Crane seldom balance, which has been and still is a very important principle to play winning bridge. Also, I am not a fan of "pre-balancing", because I just don't like balancing.
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#12 User is offline   jtfanclub 

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Posted 2004-October-05, 12:32

Wackojack, on Oct 1 2004, 06:37 AM, said:

The bidding went:
East   South  West   North
1   pass    2   pass
pass  dble  pass      ?

So the full deal was:
Dealer: East
Vul: N/S
Scoring: IMP
974
AK42
953
AK6
J1086
J85
K876
87
A2
76
AQJ1042
Q43
KQ53
Q1093
 
J10952
 

I see that once again I'm crazy.

I think double of 2 is terrible. If your partner has five diamonds he's likely to leave it in, and you don't have enough defensive strength to handle it. If he doesn't, you likely can make at least 3.

My solution is simple...bid 3! That shows exactly this hand...shortness in diamonds, not enough strength to X 1. In fact, there really isn't many shapes other than 4405 that wouldn't have bid a major at the 1 level but would bid 3.
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#13 User is offline   mikestar 

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Posted 2004-October-05, 14:54

[quote name='jtfanclub' date='Oct 5 2004, 06:32 PM'] [/QUOTE]
I see that once again I'm crazy.

I think double of 2[di] is terrible. If your partner has five diamonds he's likely to leave it in, and you don't have enough defensive strength to handle it. If he doesn't, you likely can make at least 3.

My solution is simple...bid 3[di]! That shows exactly this hand...shortness in diamonds, not enough strength to X 1[di]. In fact, there really isn't many shapes other than 4405 that wouldn't have bid a major at the 1 level but would bid 3[di]. [/quote]
Not crazy at all--this is risky because you may be too high, but you are unlikely to get hurt badly. The main danger of doubling is getting left in if patner has long diamonds. Here, he has a very simple 4H over your cuebid.
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#14 User is offline   paulhar 

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Posted 2004-October-05, 16:59

junyi_zhu, on Oct 5 2004, 01:05 PM, said:

The basic principle in bridge is that, the earlier you act, the safer you are.

This is the first post I've seen after a long hiatus - and as is frequently the case, I disagree with everybody. :rolleyes:

I unashamedly double 1D. I have 8HCP plus 5 for the void. Yes, I lack aces, but those 10's and 9's will help partner in a low level contract should we be hammered. My partners tend not to pass 1Dx without four trump tricks and another trick, and if that's not enough, then I'm -140 for 1Dx making instead of -90 for 1NT making.

Partner will not be happy if he bids notrump, but partner is odds on to have a 4-card major and we either get to a game y'all aren't getting to or we get to push the opponents around some.
I tend to lead fourth best - as opposed to the best suit, the second best suit, or the third best suit for our side
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#15 User is offline   luke warm 

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Posted 2004-October-05, 17:09

whew, i'm glad someone else said that... doubling 1D was the first thought i had
"Paul Krugman is a stupid person's idea of what a smart person sounds like." Newt Gingrich (paraphrased)
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