[Antrax]

Club night, beginner game. LHO deals and opens 1♣, partner overcalls 1♥, RHO passes and I raise to 2♥. LHO doubles, partner passes. RHO hesitates, begins to pull out a card, LHO comments "you don't HAVE to pull the double". RHO puts card back and passes. I pass. RHO leads A♠, I put down the dummy. LHO comments "you have to lead my suit", RHO switches to a club at trick 2, LHO cashes her AK♣ and combined with the trump stack she has, it's down 1 for a top for them.

It's quite obvious, even to me, this isn't exactly Bridge. That game is very loose, it's not like these two are the only ones who would do stuff like that. Specifically LHO is a player who rarely plays duplicate because she doesn't understand "all those rules" like alerts and not being allowed to talk during the auction. So, given that, I know the legal and correct thing to do is call a TD immediately, then later call one again, explain how we were damaged and get a corrected result. However, assuming I don't want the reputation of the upstart young man who abuses the rules to win boards he lost fair and square, what is a good diplomatic way of approaching such situations?

[gwnn]

The only thing other than calling the TD is to say nothing and let them do whatever they are doing. I don't think it's a good idea to talk to them without involving the TD. I think it is very annoying when someone tries to talk to me about my possible breach of ethics but tries to look friendly by not calling the director. But this is just my perspective, maybe other people think differently.

[farrnbach]

I think the only solution is to call a TD to have this sorted out. After pulling a card, or even more after a comment like "you don't HAVE to pull the double", I do not see another solution

If this is a "friendly beginner play", TD will explain this, adjust the board and everything is done. In a real tournament there will be probably procedural penalties

[blackshoe]

Given this particular event is over, I would have a talk with the TD about the general approach to the game. Don't ask for a ruling, but describe what happened, and ask what he thinks you should have done. If he suggests you should just let it slide, you have to decide whether you want to play in this club, or find another one.

[Antrax]

So there's no middle road to educating others? I had really hoped there was some diplomatic way to raise the issue of "you know, it's not ENTIRELY fair what you're doing..." without necessarily getting redress for this particular incident. Is "a stern lecture" a part of the tools in a typical TD's arsenal?

[karlson]

I think the best thing given the circumstances you've described is to let it go and find a different venue when you want to play competitive bridge.

But I do think there is a middle of the road where you can say "look, I don't want to be a total stickler for the rules here, but you did basically just tell your partner what to bid". But whether this is sensible depends much more on the personalities of the people at your club and not on anything to do with bridge. So you will have a much better idea yourself of whether it will work well.

I can say that I have never played at a club where table talk quite this explicit was tolerated. If most of the other players also play elsewhere, you can expect some backup. On the other hand if over 50% of them play 90% of their bridge in this club, I would strongly advise you to forget/accept it.

[aguahombre]

Club Night; beginner game.

These games are often preceeded by a brief lecture/discussion --the purpose of which is to educate.

Rather than "stern lecture", at the beginning of the next such game, the subject to all could be communication at the table: what is appropriate, and what should be avoided. This should come from a teacher or director, not from a player in that game. No person is singled out, and everyone gains a bit in their progession toward the mainstream.

[JLOGIC]

Definitely pick your battles, and I call the director less than anyone, but to me this is obv a battle worth picking. Just call the director imo. Table talk is the biggest taboo thing in card games/bridge.

I find "educating" the opps to in general be a dumb approach if you are in no position of authority, many people try to educate others unsolicited on rules, ethics, and how to play the game and are almost always wrong, so people will just ignore you or nod and ignore you. However, the director lecturing them will have an impact.

[daveharty]

Antrax, on 2011-August-16, 03:41, said:

... assuming I don't want the reputation of the upstart young man who abuses the rules to win boards he lost fair and square...

I don't think that's what would happen here. "Abusing the rules" and "following the rules" are quite different; "expecting others to follow the rules" might seem to fall somewhere in between in the eyes of some, but you didn't lose this board fair and square. I agree 100% with relaxing your "director alarm" when you are playing in a beginner field; it's silly to call the director for things like tempo issues when the opponents are probably just legitimately trying to figure out how to bid their cards and not drawing any inferences whatsoever from their partner's hesitations. But at no level of bridge is it okay to double and then say "Partner, that was a penalty double, I've got them beat," which is essentially what happened to you. Your opponent very well might be upset about it, even if you are perfectly friendly about calling the director and remain neutral and nonjudgmental about relating the facts to the director. But your opponent needs to understand that A) a director call is not a personal attack; and B) that kind of table talk truly does impair others' enjoyment of the game. As long as you are pleasant about it, I don't think LHO is likely to harbor a grudge.

[ArtK78]

Besides all of the foregoing, it was not you who created the problem. So call the TD and have the TD deal with the situation.

[Antrax]

aguahombre, on 2011-August-16, 10:02, said:

Club Night; beginner game.

These games are often preceeded by a brief lecture/discussion --the purpose of which is to educate.

Rather than "stern lecture", at the beginning of the next such game, the subject to all could be communication at the table: what is appropriate, and what should be avoided. This should come from a teacher or director, not from a player in that game. No person is singled out, and everyone gains a bit in their progession toward the mainstream.

This is a really excellent idea. Not to detract from the other useful advice in this thread, but I'm definitely also going with this one.

[Free]

Imo the smart thing is to walk away and never return to that club.

[jmcw]

blackshoe, on 2011-August-16, 09:14, said:

Given this particular event is over, I would have a talk with the TD about the general approach to the game. Don't ask for a ruling, but describe what happened, and ask what he thinks you should have done. If he suggests you should just let it slide, you have to decide whether you want to play in this club, or find another one.

I agree with this. It's likely the director is aware well of the flagrant abuse of the laws and has chosen to just "ignore" it.

In some clubs I have played, merely calling the director gets disapproving looks from around the room...sounds like you've found one.

[Foxx]

IMHO this club should have its right to award masterpoints revoked.

[mgoetze]

Foxx, on 2011-August-16, 15:52, said:

IMHO this club should have its right to award masterpoints revoked.

Finally someone touches on the most important aspect of this affair!!1!

[ggwhiz]

blackshoe, on 2011-August-16, 09:14, said:

Given this particular event is over, I would have a talk with the TD about the general approach to the game. Don't ask for a ruling, but describe what happened, and ask what he thinks you should have done. If he suggests you should just let it slide, you have to decide whether you want to play in this club, or find another one.

I agree completely. The Director is the best one to educate the beginners in a private conversation without any confrontation being real or perceived.

[Antrax]

Free, on 2011-August-16, 14:13, said:

Imo the smart thing is to walk away and never return to that club.

Not to single you out, but why, precisely? I was damaged on one board. The opponents paid me back with premium on the other two boards of that session, and it's not like I'm acquiring this as a bad habit, I know it's wrong and I don't do it myself. If I get something wrong, I have a knowledgeable partner that tells me so after the board, and they have good TDs I can consult with when I'm unsure, or this forum. On most boards on most days this doesn't happen, so I get a good game of Bridge. Why walk away?

[barmar]

I think he assumed that you were reporting typical behavior, not a singular event.

[Free]

Antrax, on 2011-August-16, 23:22, said:

Not to single you out, but why, precisely? I was damaged on one board. The opponents paid me back with premium on the other two boards of that session, and it's not like I'm acquiring this as a bad habit, I know it's wrong and I don't do it myself. If I get something wrong, I have a knowledgeable partner that tells me so after the board, and they have good TDs I can consult with when I'm unsure, or this forum. On most boards on most days this doesn't happen, so I get a good game of Bridge. Why walk away?

Somehow I got the impression that it's not only this pair that does such things, that it's considered quite normal, and that calling a TD will give you some reputation you don't want without permanently solving the issue. My mistake apparently.

"If you can't beat them, join them. If you can't join them, walk away." -> can't as in "don't want to"

[Antrax]

Yeah, sorry. What I meant is that the standard is pretty loose, but it's usually quite harmless. Things like people arguing with the dummy while declaring the hand that his bidding was wrong, or verbally stating "I have no idea what's going on" when it's clear to everyone the auction is off the rails, etc. Director calls are very rare (typically just for revokes or "backsies"), which is why I'm trying to avoid looking like someone who's taking advantage of the quite natural tendency to comment on the hand during the play