[phil_20686]

MP

---

I have lots of questions about this auction.

Firstly, and most importantly, does 4!s promise a spade control on this auction?

What is the meaning of 4N instead of 4S? Is it keycard, or should it be both minors? Would you put a general slam try through 4N?

My analysis of the possible sequences was as follows:

(1) 5H would ask for a spade control.
(2) 4N would be both minors, so 4N-5m corrected to 5H would show some kind of slam try. Obviously this is not ideal if the oppo bid 5S.
(3) Thus 4S should always show a spade control?
(4) In any event, after 5S, should you dble, make a FP, or bid 6H? What do you think RHO has?

[MrAce]

phil_20686, on 2011-August-15, 06:37, said:

MP

---

I have lots of questions about this auction.

Firstly, and most importantly, does 4!s promise a spade control on this auction?

What is the meaning of 4N instead of 4S? Is it keycard, or should it be both minors? Would you put a general slam try through 4N?

My analysis of the possible sequences was as follows:

(1) 5H would ask for a spade control.
(2) 4N would be both minors, so 4N-5m corrected to 5H would show some kind of slam try. Obviously this is not ideal if the oppo bid 5S.
(3) Thus 4S should always show a spade control?
(4) In any event, after 5S, should you dble, make a FP, or bid 6H? What do you think RHO has?

IMO; Yes 5♥ would be asking ♠ control the way i like it, but that doesn't mean 4♠ promises ♠ control, it can be a hand too good to just pass 4♥ since you have very wide varety of hands especially at these colors for your 4♥ bid. Also, knowing that 4♦ opener already comitted to 4♠ and you have slim to non chance of playing 4♥, he wants to create a forcing pass situation in case they bid 5♠, b4 he bids 5♥, telling us we own the hand in the mean of strength.

xx Ax AQxxx KJxx some may think this hand should bid 5♥ and ask [spades stopper but as i said 4♥ overcall has a wide variaty of hands at these colors. For example with your original hand even 5 level is not safe.

4NT is % 100 RKCB for me. In my 30 years of bridge experience, i dont remember too many hands where my pd overcalled at 4 level and i needed badly to show bicolor unbid suits, but as lame or as primitive as it may sound to some people, if 4NT can logically be asking keycards then it is RKCB for me.

What do i do over 5[spades] ? This was already tuff and 5♠ made it worse for us. I have a good hand and i hate doubling them in forc pass situation with nothing in their suit, but we are already under too much pressure and pd is probably expecting/hoping we dont have trump losers, which may not be the case, he will definetely bid slam with a lot of hands that has no play in slam if i pass, some of them we dont have ♠ stopper. I would DBL and hope to collect 500, i dont think preempter has less than 9 trix , we wont get more than 500.

[paulg]

How quaint that West passed.

I think 4NT should be both minors or general heart slam-try, leaving 5♥ to ask for spade control and 4♠ to be key-card in the rare situations that it can be bid. If you don't play kickback and 5m is natural, then 4♠ should probably show a spade control, but not necessarily first round. I seem to be agreeing with you, so I'll go and shoot myself now!

Over 5♠ I make the least progressive move possible. For most that will be a double (I invert pass/double here so would pass, asking partner to double). I don't care what RHO has, I am more concerned with conveying the right message to partner.

I'm guessing you did something else.

[aguahombre]

The good news is that you would never have this decision against me. 4D is disciplined and less than 9 pure tricks, which would open 2C; would never bid again unless pard brings me back into it.

The bad news is we apparently haven't asked more about "good spade bid", but I guess I would try a double, since I have pretty much the worst possible 4H bid for slam purposes, hold a couple spades, and have a stiff to lead.

[Phil]

In my world:

4♠ is choice of games; both minors - unclear about heart tolerance.
4N is RKC (but you can switch 4N and 4♠).
5♥ asks for a spade control, but I could be convinced otherwise.

Pass is forcing over 5♠. I would bid 6♥. RHO is bidding like he has a sick two suiter. KQJTxxx v KQxxx x.

[mfa1010]

4♠ is a heart raise with a spade control. 4♠ shows a spade control because it pushes the bidding as high as 5♥ does. Compare to (3♥)-3♠-(p)-4♥/5♠, where 4♥ doesn't say anything about a control because we can still get out in 4♠.

4NT would be RKC for hearts. With both minors, a delayed 4NT could become relevant if opener balances with 4♠.

5♥ denies a spade control. For us it is merely a solid invitation opposite one, but for others it might mean "raise with a spade control". This style issue is good to discuss with partner.

I would pass (forcing). 6♥ is a little undisciplined but tempting if east is expected to be super rock solid.

[Phil]

Michael has changed my mind. Its inconceivable RHO is passing our 4♥ (what does the pass of a NAMYATS opener mean, anyway? You play it?), so we have a delayed 4N as minors. So change mine to 4♠ is a heart raise with a spade control please.

[phil_20686]

so partners hand was

---

Which was not what I was expecting. He did not think you could have any delayed sequences incase the namyats opener passed. I bid 6H-1, ATB? RHO was AKQxxxx - xx Kxxx

so there were plenty of tricks on offer in 5SX.

[phil_20686]

Phil, on 2011-August-15, 11:59, said:

Michael has changed my mind. Its inconceivable RHO is passing our 4♥ (what does the pass of a NAMYATS opener mean, anyway? You play it?), so we have a delayed 4N as minors. So change mine to 4♠ is a heart raise with a spade control please.

I assumed it meant he had a singleton spade or somethign like that, but the opps did not have any agreement.

[aguahombre]

phil_20686, on 2011-August-18, 10:40, said:

so partners hand was

---

Which was not what I was expecting. He did not think you could have any delayed sequences incase the namyats opener passed. I bid 6H-1, ATB? RHO was AKQxxxx - xx Kxxx

so there were plenty of tricks on offer in 5SX.

Yep. Your RHO offered up a nice number vulnerable...reasonable expectation when one bids the same hand twice, in case his partner wasn't paying attention the first time.

You don't know the exact holding of partner, but whichever of pass or double shows decent defensive prospects and less offense for the previous call seems appropriate.

[Zelandakh]

Marvin French's site has a short write-up of a reasonable defence to Namyats. It is unfortunately silent on the issue of the cue over (4D) - 4H though. However, if we think about the situation then we have 3 bids that we can use for heart raises, 4S, 4NT and 5H. And there are 4 basic hand types, slam try with/without spade control and serious slam interest with/without spade control. It would be nice to also have bids available for a spade void but with space so limited we cannot have everything. So it seems logical to have 2 of these hand types shown with 4S and 1 each by 4NT and 5H. The obvious meaning for 4NT is as RKCB (with a spade control). Then it is surely clear to use 5H as a slam try with spade control leaving 4S to deny a spade control. This seems to me to maximise the available space while still using logical meanings for bids.

[jogs]

Quote

MP

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phil_20686, on 2011-August-18, 10:40, said:

so partners hand was

---

Which was not what I was expecting. He did not think you could have any delayed sequences incase the namyats opener passed. I bid 6H-1, ATB? RHO was AKQxxxx - xx Kxxx

so there were plenty of tricks on offer in 5SX.

I completely disagree with your partnership approach to contested auctions. After the 4♦ opening, slam is unlikely. Being in the correct strain is worth its weight in gold. Only bid slams which are at least 65% makeable.
Advancer should pass 4♥. You should double 5♠. Even if advancer had a singleton spade, he needs a perfect hand. Must hold at least ace fourth of heart, ace of diamonds, and the king of clubs.

If I held both hands the auction would go

--- ---- 4♦ - 4♥
p - p - 4♠ - p
p - 5♦ - p - 5♥
all pass

No one would introduce a new suit to play at the five level. 5♦ is a suit agreeing to hearts as trumps. If opponents compete to 5♠, double for penalties. Your hands don't fit.

[phil_20686]

jogs, on 2011-August-21, 20:54, said:

Advancer should pass 4♥. You should double 5♠. Even if advancer had a singleton spade, he needs a perfect hand. Must hold at least ace fourth of heart, ace of diamonds, and the king of clubs.

This seems contradictory - if you think this hand is not good enough for a 4S bid, then you surely have a move over 4S. What else can he have "extra" apart from the club K.

[whereagles]

> 4!s promise a spade control on this auction?

Probably. Even more since 5♥ is available to show the raise without that control.


What is the meaning of 4N instead of 4S? Is it keycard, or should it be both minors?

Keycard. I don't know anyone who plays

(4♥) 4♠ (pass) 4NT

as minors. The case at hand shouldn't be different.


Would you put a general slam try through 4N?

Heaven's no. We got enough mess already.


> In any event, after 5S, should you dble, make a FP, or bid 6H? What do you think RHO has?

A bucketload of spades! I'd dbl, as I have nothing more to show and no spade control.

[jogs]

phil_20686, on 2011-August-22, 02:47, said:

This seems contradictory - if you think this hand is not good enough for a 4S bid, then you surely have a move over 4S. What else can he have "extra" apart from the club K.

Tricks aren't only about points. Tricks come from HCP, combined trump length, and pattern fit of the partnership hands. Advancer has passed 4♥. Interventor now knows advancer is likely to have a doubleton spade. The 5♦ bid shows the other suit. Now interventor knows the partnership side suits don't fit. The double of 5♠ is clear. Less clear if 5♣ is bid. Both partnerships will have a two suited fits. This creates a more combined tricks than combined trumps situation. This makes 6♥ a higher percentage bid. 6♥ may be a necessary sac.