[pigpenz]

auction:
1♦ pass 1♠ X
XX 2♣ 2♥

now in real life you dont get to click on your partner and find out what his bid means.
after the hand I check and it says 2♥ 4+ spades limit major raise 8+ tp. I guess I
could live with that if i really thought that is what it means, but when holding 4 hearts
and you opt to play 4-4 heart fit instead find its 4-2 fit i dont. Is this really what 2♥
should be?
we have
3♣
2♠
3♠

as available bids knowing that we have 5-3 ♠ fit, now how does 2 ♥ call fit into this?????
just seems some of the obtuseness of bidding should be programmed out of this, I guess I dont ever recall
this type of nonsense happening in the commercial version of GIB.

[pigpenz]

OK
got brave and went in and used pbn editor to load hand into commercial gib,
first ===
orignal one didnt play redouble as 3 card support so north bid 3NT over 3♣ response
to take out double, so eventuall contract will be 4♠ down one.

if we just make the 2♠ call over the double, not bad since i used to play 4 card majors
we still fetch 3♣ respondse to double and GIB north bids 3♠ which we can pass or raise to
4♠.

so my question is how does the redouble showing 3 card support trigger this 2♥ response???

[georgi]

pigpenz, on 2011-August-11, 08:36, said:

auction:
1♦ pass 1♠ X
XX 2♣ 2♥

now in real life you dont get to click on your partner and find out what his bid means.
after the hand I check and it says 2♥ 4+ spades limit major raise 8+ tp. I guess I
could live with that if i really thought that is what it means, but when holding 4 hearts
and you opt to play 4-4 heart fit instead find its 4-2 fit i dont. Is this really what 2♥
should be?
we have
3♣
2♠
3♠

as available bids knowing that we have 5-3 ♠ fit, now how does 2 ♥ call fit into this?????
just seems some of the obtuseness of bidding should be programmed out of this, I guess I dont ever recall
this type of nonsense happening in the commercial version of GIB.

In this auction, ♥ and ♣ are already pointed suits belonging to responder's LHO.
So responder has couple of options i think, bid something not quite strong as 2♠ or 3♠.
Or he could try to show more values cuebiding their suits, 2♥ is supposedly not natural but cuebid, unless you don't trust the double holding rest two suits.
3♣ should be even stronger, because avoiding the lower cuebid you ignore the option you have only 2♠ at the table.

The Redoubler is currently unlimited hand yet, so the responder should behave first to the current position then sees how opener will continue.

Cuebiding in opponents suits is not so scary i think, but trying to ignore the information they give us and playing in their suit ( although alluded only ) might be quite risky.


Say we have this auction:
1♦ - 2♦( majors ) - Pass - 3♣

What should be 3♣ here. I wish to play in clubs at the same moment partner shares he has majors or i wish to point him something else?

I don't think XX triggers automatically 2♥.
Probably the concrete hand holdings might hint whether it was insane or some kind of normal forcing.

[pigpenz]

georgi, on 2011-August-11, 11:14, said:

In this auction, ♥ and ♣ are already pointed suits belonging to responder's LHO.
So responder has couple of options i think, bid something not quite strong as 2♠ or 3♠.
Or he could try to show more values cuebiding their suits, 2♥ is supposedly not natural but cuebid, unless you don't trust the double holding rest two suits.
3♣ should be even stronger, because avoiding the lower cuebid you ignore the option you have only 2♠ at the table.

The Redoubler is currently unlimited hand yet, so the responder should behave first to the current position then sees how opener will continue.

Cuebiding in opponents suits is not so scary i think, but trying to ignore the information they give us and playing in their suit ( although alluded only ) might be quite risky.


Say we have this auction:
1♦ - 2♦( majors ) - Pass - 3♣

What should be 3♣ here. I wish to play in clubs at the same moment partner shares he has majors or i wish to point him something else?

I don't think XX triggers automatically 2♥.
Probably the concrete hand holdings might hint whether it was insane or some kind of normal forcing.

ok now that we touched the merits of what 2♥ bid is over support double, and wether redouble should take 2♥ call as natural or cue bid,
GIB now is under the gun......his partner assumes his 2♥ call is natural and has decided to play 4-4 ♥ fit over 5-3 ♠ fit.
Since GIB is the only one to know for sure that his 2♥ call was not natural why would he then pass 4♥ to play a 4-2♥ fit knowing
they have a for sure 5-3♠ fit.

[Bbradley62]

pigpenz, on 2011-August-12, 14:10, said:

Since GIB is the only one to know for sure that his 2♥ call was not natural...

GIB always presumes his partner knows their system and knows what's going on.

[Bbradley62]

---

It's too bad we can't ask GIB what he thinks your shape could possibly be after your 4♥ bid. I suspect there isn't any possible shape. It's not at all clear what you were trying to accomplish, other than giving your partner a headache.

[georgi]

---

Something like this is what North imagined.

Or this,

---

But in all cases 2♥ is described as 4+♠ 8+TP, it doesn't mention hearts at all, and why should be natural at all?

You offer to the partner to play in their 4+ promised suit? Notice X already says 4+♥ 4+♣.

GIB (North) is sure that its not the only one who knows that, it's mentioned in the explanation notice.

Even if it's not mentioned, that 2♥ should be rather conventional like stopper at least there, instead of just natural 4+ with xxxx.

Underestimating the information given by your opponent's calls could work once twice, but could drag you into plenty -800 very often.

[pigpenz]

georgi, on 2011-August-13, 05:23, said:

---

Something like this is what North imagined.

Or this,

---

But in all cases 2♥ is described as 4+♠ 8+TP, it doesn't mention hearts at all, and why should be natural at all?

You offer to the partner to play in their 4+ promised suit? Notice X already says 4+♥ 4+♣.

GIB (North) is sure that its not the only one who knows that, it's mentioned in the explanation notice.

Even if it's not mentioned, that 2♥ should be rather conventional like stopper at least there, instead of just natural 4+ with xxxx.

Underestimating the information given by your opponent's calls could work once twice, but could drag you into plenty -800 very often.

Again I keep saying in real life you dont get to click your partners head to find out what his bid means.....playing with GIB you souldnt have to either.
so again now that GIB knows you have a 5-3♠ fit why would it want to play in 4-2♥ FIT??? GIB knows what his 2♥ call meant for sure, does this
mean GIB doesnt believe the XX showed 3 card ♠ support? In real life this happens all the time you or your partner makes a bid and sometimes its not interpreted the right way, but it doesnt mean you have to do something stupid like play in a 4-2 fit vs a 5-3 fit.

It seems like GIB made a randon deciscion for some reason not to trust his partner over the redouble support bid, I can live with not understanding the 2♥ call when there were other options available but I can understand the passing 4♥ bid, that just seems out right silly

[Bbradley62]

pigpenz, on 2011-August-13, 12:07, said:

Again I keep saying in real life you dont get to click your partners head to find out what his bid means..... playing with GIB you souldnt have to either.

In real life, you are expected to discuss your system with your partner and know what (reasonably) common auctions mean before you sit down to play. Clearly, you do not have this option with GIB, so it is not unreasonable to peek to see what GIB means when he bids.

The conversation (auction) you had with GIB was:
you, 1♦: I have an opening hand, etc, etc.
GIB, 1♠: I have at least 4 spades, etc, etc.
you, Rdbl: I have 3 spades.
GIB, 2♥: I have better than a minimum hand.
you, 3♥: I have values in hearts, but not enough strength to go to game based on what I already know. Given that, do you think we should go to game?
GIB, 3♠: No, we should stop here.
you, 4♥: But I want to bid more hearts.
GIB, pass: Fine; have it your way.

[cloa513]

Bbradley62, on 2011-August-13, 12:29, said:

In real life, you are expected to discuss your system with your partner and know what (reasonably) common auctions mean before you sit down to play. Clearly, you do not have this option with GIB, so it is not unreasonable to peek to see what GIB means when he bids.

The conversation (auction) you had with GIB was:
you, 1♦: I have an opening hand, etc, etc.
GIB, 1♠: I have at least 4 spades, etc, etc.
you, Rdbl: I have 3 spades.
GIB, 2♥: I have better than a minimum hand.
you, 3♥: I have values in hearts, but not enough strength to go to game based on what I already know. Given that, do you think we should go to game?
GIB, 3♠: No, we should stop here.
you, 4♥: But I want to bid more hearts.
GIB, pass: Fine; have it your way.

Whereas the conversation he though he had was
you, 1♦: I have an opening hand, etc, etc.
GIB, 1♠: I have at least 4 spades, etc, etc.
you, Rdbl: I have 3 spades.
GIB: I have four hearts as well as 5 spades and half decent hand (even though my bidding description pretty much denies 5 spades by saying 4 spades+)
you: four-four hearts might play better- I invite you to game
GIB: My spades are better than my hearts
you: Didn't you say you had 4 hearts and we can run the spades to make discards.

[pigpenz]

Bbradley62, on 2011-August-13, 12:29, said:

In real life, you are expected to discuss your system with your partner and know what (reasonably) common auctions mean before you sit down to play. Clearly, you do not have this option with GIB, so it is not unreasonable to peek to see what GIB means when he bids.

The conversation (auction) you had with GIB was:
you, 1♦: I have an opening hand, etc, etc.
GIB, 1♠: I have at least 4 spades, etc, etc.
you, Rdbl: I have 3 spades.
GIB, 2♥: I have better than a minimum hand.
you, 3♥: I have values in hearts, but not enough strength to go to game based on what I already know. Given that, do you think we should go to game?
GIB, 3♠: No, we should stop here.
you, 4♥: But I want to bid more hearts.
GIB, pass: Fine; have it your way.

I guess thats when I would get a new partner