[Elianna]

We already had a debate about the "wtp" posts. I believe that those of us who didn't like them stated our reasons/requests for longer posts, but I hope that we weren't annoying about it (although our idea may have been annoying to others, I understand). It's one thing replying to a three letter post by politely asking the person to elaborate, and it's another to make a passive-aggressive bitch fest that really doesn't elicit a response. At least not a useful one.

I don't really feel I have a dog in this particular fight. But if we're voting people off the forums, I have a different candidate. And now I'm going to give others advice that I keep giving myself, and while I'm usually good at following it, I've clearly broken it a few times in the past: DON'T ENGAGE WITH THE CRAZIES!

Also, in even more seriousness, a better search function, and perhaps a quiz based on the search function before people can post (so that they know to search for old topics before having yet ANOTHER ratings thread started by a newbie) would help even more. It would help with pile-ons of newbies who post things that are new to them (5 card majors can open NT? AMAZING!) and also could be engineered to show different parts of the forum, so newbies could get more of an idea of what goes where. I might even be willing to help work on this treasure hunt, though I do think that Gwnn might be the best candidate to work on this.

[aguahombre]

Until then, I hope someone simply references an old thread about an old subject to assist people who have recently joined us.

I don't mind doing so, when I can; but it is strictly from memory and sophomoric research on my part. There are others, such as Gwnn who are more competent. The important thing IMO is for us not to write anything which could be taken as snobbish to people who are unaware of previous ad nauseums.

On "WTP?" posts, the only ones which annoy me are those which appear in threads where different viewpoints are in the process of being discussed.

[mgoetze]

Elianna, on 2011-August-12, 19:43, said:

Also, in even more seriousness, a better search function, and perhaps a quiz based on the search function before people can post (so that they know to search for old topics before having yet ANOTHER ratings thread started by a newbie) would help even more. It would help with pile-ons of newbies who post things that are new to them (5 card majors can open NT? AMAZING!) and also could be engineered to show different parts of the forum, so newbies could get more of an idea of what goes where. I might even be willing to help work on this treasure hunt, though I do think that Gwnn might be the best candidate to work on this.

Or petition the moderators to pin the thread announcing my Systems Index (and send me more suggestions which threads should be included).

[Bbradley62]

I tried to look up the old "wtp" debate, but the search function won't look up a word of fewer than four letters

[JLOGIC]

Quote

I'm pretty sure there's nothing wrong with that, as well. Still, I prefer longer answers, at the current stage in my development.

Not trying to go around in circles, I agree that long answers are usually preferable (to anyone). I guess I just mean that sometimes people don't want to give a long answer for whatever reason (presumably time and/or interest level in the hand). In those cases I think the question is whether no answer is better than a short one. I don't see much harm in the latter, and I think even a string of answers like "3N" is better than nothing, at least the OP will know most people would bid 3N, which is something. I agree it makes one a worse poster if they use one line answers a lot, but it's on topic and no one has to strive to give the best answer ever all the time, it's not practical.

Quote

I believe this was already answered in one of my previous posts. A short unsatisfactory (to me) answer reduces the odds of getting a long answer, and when I open topics I admit I care mostly about enlightening myself, rather than others.

That is an interesting point, I don't know if it's true. I think you could argue that people posting a short answer could cause a debate to start if others don't agree with it (if I disagree with everyones short answer, I'll always feel compelled to write a novel on why!). It is often true on the internet that the first reply sets the tone though, so you might be right. Sorry if you answered that before I did not see it.

Quote

Are you asking who they are so you can argue with me the group is accurate? It seems like you agree some amount of "groupthink" is natural, so what is the point of inquiring exactly who I have in mind?

True, I'm sure it was mainly curiosity, I shouldn't have asked. I think in general I disagree that there is a group of friends who have each others backs for the sake of having each others backs, but it is tough for me to argue that without specifics. Still, it was a dumb question.

Quote

I agree it's quite natural for friendships to develop and for friends to have each other's backs. Irrespective, this natural tendency also invokes a natural tendency for some people to feel excluded or ganged-up on. This can be viewed as an unfortunate necessity, or not. I choose the latter.

Again, I think the motive is off. Group think in a community, check, we both agree. Gwnn's "Smart people are more likely to agree with each other." Ok not sure if I would word it that way, but also a good point. Having each others backs out of friendship, I don't think that's a motive for people in a bridge discussion, when the non-bridge bitch fights break out then yeah maybe (but still more of the other stuff). I think some of the onus is on the people who feel ganged up on if the BBF community disagrees with their bidding, but others could perhaps be more sensitive.

Quote

I don't think I've given anyone cause to hate me, but indeed I've often felt excluded.

That is too bad (and I mean that sincerely, I find you to be a nice person and good poster even though we sometimes don't agree). From what you said later, some of it is from not understanding/being "in the loop" when you first started posting here. Maybe this goes back to your "is this an unfortunate necessity or not" thing, but to me all communities will have references, lingo, etc. Explaining them all the time would be time consuming and annoying. The way I look at it is when a new person joins a new community, the onus is on them to pick up the stuff. This happens when you become friends with a new group of friends, join a new gym class, whatever. Maybe this is a bad attitude and not actually necessary, but it is so standard in all social situations. I can see why this makes new people feel excluded at first, but to me there is a difference in being new and not understanding stuff, and actually being unwelcome or excluded, because it is not something that is personal.

I can see why this might have turned you off (glad you stuck around), but it also seems like it would make the whole place less enjoyable for all non really new members who have become friends here to have no slang or references of past inside forum jokes or whatever. Should I not make some joke to pclayton about kenrexford (both my friends, both I've had huge blow ups with here, btw), in a thread, because others might not understand? I don't think so. (Even me saying pclayton, I did it by accident, as he goes by Phil now, and others might not know who I'm talking about...that might be unwelcoming to new people). Yes, it would probably make me a nicer and more considerate person if I never made any references like that, but I still don't feel like I'm being unwelcoming by doing so (especially for me! Haha...or not).

Quote

but certainly I've been welcomed more warmly to other forums on the internet

Perhaps it's because I was on 4chan early in my life but I've seen much worse welcomes also.

I see your points, and I appreciate them, and I do not mean this about you but at the end of the day I still think:

-A lot of people who don't like short posts are comparing them to possible longer ones and feel entitled to them (rather than have a legitimate concern about them). It's like "wow, this person gives long answers sometimes, and didn't give me one, my question was good and I deserve one.

-When someone joins a community they should not expect there to be no inside jokes, past references, unfamiliar slang, etc to cater to them. There is more onus on them. Of course there is an onus on the community to make new people feel welcome, and perhaps we disagree on how proficient at this the BBF regs are, but I think they are far better than average (myself excluded). Again, there is a problem with thinking about "me, me, me"

On that note, I thought there was a glossary of terms here stickied. Maybe not? Reading that should help with some slang/acronyms.

-In general, I think people who do not act entitled and do not act in an antisocial manner are included more often. Especially if these people make an effort to play on BBO with the regs, or private message them, or reach out somehow. I'm not saying they have to do this, I just think this is normal in social situations. People are going to give more/better replies to their friends or mentees or people they're rooting for. There is nothing wrong or abnormal about this. Basically, people can increase their chances of feeling welcome by being pro-active.

-I disagree that friends are more likely to agree with each other in the bridge threads. I used to make it a point to post when I disagreed with jdonn or han, jdonn thought this was me picking on him but it was more interesting when we disagreed, and the times we agreed (most) I felt like I'd be repeating them by posting.

That is not directed at you, just in general. In fact, I have always tried to give you good answers because you seemed cool and also your posts were usually in beginner/int forum. But I am just one person obv.

[JLOGIC]

Bbradley62, on 2011-August-13, 06:49, said:

I tried to look up the old "wtp" debate, but the search function won't look up a word of fewer than four letters

http://www.bridgebas...ne-liner-posts/

This is the one I was thinking of. (pro tip if you want to search a 3 letter word, just use google and site:bridgebase.com/forums).

Not sure if you even posted back then but at one point I created an account called JLOL and my only content in posts was to quote a post and say LOL. I did not do this in b/i, and almost always in a/e, and it was part of my crusade to limit and/or self police the rampant problem of people who had no clue posting in advanced/expert. It got to the point where many people starting LOLing many things. If you read posts from like 2009 you will see it a lot.

It was also pre rep obviously so a lot of posts were "Agree with person X." I think the + votes help a lot with this problem. And wtp or obv were the same as now.

Edit, wish I had seen this thread before my previous wall of text...I made basically the same points as 2.5 years ago. Here it is:

http://www.bridgebas...post__p__347328

[Antrax]

mgoetze, on 2011-August-12, 19:21, said:

I'm sure you could work out a deal wherein you pay Justin per word, rather than his usual hourly rate.

Oh wait, you thought you were entitled to long, thoughtful answers to all your questions for free?

I'd like to re-focus the discussion. I don't think I have anything new to contribute to the "wtp or not" discussion. In the past someone (I think Free?) linked me to an old discussion where I saw the prevalent opinions mentioned and discussed. All I said is "here are some cases where I felt excluded". It's quite alright to think I'm alone in this, or that I'm wrong to feel that way. What I don't understand is arguing with my personal experience as a newbie, especially by putting words in my mouth. It did happen, that is how it made me feel, let's work from here.

JLOGIC, I'll give you an example: I'm quite active in a puzzle forum, and every couple of months someone wanders in with the "does 0.9999.... equal 1" debate. We usually just use a canned response as in "hi, this has a clear answer and has been discussed several times, here's a selection of proofs, let us know if it's not enough". I don't know if bridge questions are that cut and dried, but the point I'm trying to make is that if someone posted such a thread and got 34 "yes, they're equal" answers, they'd just feel like idiots. Maybe they should feel like idiots, but if you want to encourage them to participate then you need to forgive them even when they're being idiotic. Even when they argue with you despite being much worse players, and even when they do it disrespectfully. Yes it's a pain, but we got some good members thanks to being super patient to people with were being wrong, loudly.
My idea to resolve the tension being allowing members to jest and allowing new members to feel welcomed is to moderate the B/I forums a lot more proactively, assuming new members mostly post in B/I, which may be wrong, since in essence it's another self-rating situation. Maybe they could be renamed "Relaxed Bridge Discussion" and "Main Bridge Discussion" or something. Anyway, one of them has to be the place where people can be idiots without being made fun of, and most posts are legible to first-time posters.

[JLOGIC]

B/I should be exactly that, I am surprised that you feel that it is otherwise (not saying you're wrong, I just thought everyone behaved well there...even I do!).

I think you hit upon something nicely, people are gonna get flamed in a/e way more and I think they should since they are not respecting the subforums. It would be like posting in advanced puzzle forum: so... I think .999.... is NOT equal to 1! Of course if it was a brand new poster I would expect them to be told to go to the beginner/int forum in that case rather than trolled.

I think we basically agree, if people are making others feel unwelcome in beginner/int that is really wrong. It has always been a no-no according to the rules and I thought it was actively policed by both moderation and the members.

There was also a thread a while ago about adding more moderators specifically for that purpose I think actually fwiw.

[gwnn]

Bbradley62, on 2011-August-13, 06:49, said:

I tried to look up the old "wtp" debate, but the search function won't look up a word of fewer than four letters

For future reference, you can use google search. Indeed:
http://www.google.co...:bridgebase.com

spits out the thread

[JLOGIC]

gwnn, on 2011-August-13, 07:45, said:

For future reference, you can use google search. Indeed:
http://www.google.co...:bridgebase.com

spits out the thread

COULDNT YOU HAVE JUST SAID AGREE WITH JLALL?!

I OWN GWNN said:

This is the one I was thinking of. (pro tip if you want to search a 3 letter word, just use google and site:bridgebase.com/forums).

[gwnn]

I never read jlall posts that are longer than 1 line

[Antrax]

JLOGIC, on 2011-August-13, 07:32, said:

There was also a thread a while ago about adding more moderators specifically for that purpose I think actually fwiw.

You probably mean this thread: http://www.bridgebas...rum-moderation/
I posted there under my old username.

[Bbradley62]

JLOGIC, on 2011-August-13, 06:59, said:

Not sure if you even posted back then but at one point I created an account called JLOL and my only content in posts was to quote a post and say LOL.

When I first joined, JLOL and PhantomSac were two of the more prolific posters, and it took me a while to figure out that they were alter-egos.

[Free]

JLOGIC, on 2011-August-13, 07:47, said:

COULDNT YOU HAVE JUST SAID AGREE WITH JLALL?!

Please don't abuse CAPS

Fwiw I agree with pretty much everything you wrote in this thread. Personally I prefer answers with a short "to the point" explanation, but obviously a longer post is required sometimes to get all your thoughts written out. Occasionally I even skip posts which are too long to save myself some time while I'm still able to get the general opinion about the question asked.

[Elianna]

JLOGIC, on 2011-August-13, 07:32, said:

Of course if it was a brand new poster I would expect them to be told to go to the beginner/int forum in that case rather than trolled.

I agree if someone was posting "I have Axx AJxx AKx xxx, what do I open in SAYC" in the A/E subforum, perhaps they should be pointed at the B/I subforum (or their thread moved there). The problem is that any kind of suggestion (even politely worded) to that effect is taken by some people as an insult, because people have differing ideas of what A/E means. Probably the best is to just report it, and not engage, but that's quite hard to do.

Also, re: the cliques. Of course people are friends with each other. Everyone is human. And of course it feels awkward as a new person. But I don't think that cliques are that prevalent or that overwhelming.