[helene_t]

It went like this (IMPs, game all):
1♥-(pass)-2♦*-(2♠) *4+/10+
pass(?)- (pass)-3♣(?)-(pass)
3NT a.p.

Two down since neither p had extras. How should this be avoided?

What does opener's first pass imply? Is it forcing? Can it be a penalty pass?

Does responder's 3♣ show extras? If not, is it forcing? If it does show extras, could he have used Lebensohl with a minimal hand? Or a negative double?

[Flame]

This is only my logic about the meanings of the bids when without special agrements
First i think it shouldnt be forcing situation, i think 2 over 1 is forcing up to 2 in our suit, so 1s-2d-(2h) would have been forcing but (2s) isnt.
If its not forcing then pass is the weakest bid.
Now to the 3C, here the logic is the same as after 1H-2D-2NT (no interferences) would 3c be forcing now ? would it show extras, or just show a weak distributional, i think most play it to show extra, so i would play 3c after the 2sp overcall as the same, non minimum hand.
Double would be negative, which could still have minimum hcp, pass by opener could have been a trap pass.
I think a better structure can be found, but is this my natural one.

[cherdano]

Flame, on Sep 30 2004, 08:44 AM, said:

First i think it shouldnt be forcing situation, i think 2 over 1 is forcing up to 2 in our suit, so 1s-2d-(2h) would have been forcing but (2s) isnt.

Hmm. If this is in SAYC context, then 2/1 forces to 2NT or 3-level of the 2/1 suit. Then I would assume we are not allowed to stop below 2NT in competition either?

[Flame]

cherdano, on Sep 30 2004, 04:20 AM, said:

Flame, on Sep 30 2004, 08:44 AM, said:

First i think it shouldnt be forcing situation, i think 2 over 1 is forcing up to 2 in our suit, so 1s-2d-(2h) would have been forcing but (2s) isnt.

Hmm. If this is in SAYC context, then 2/1 forces to 2NT or 3-level of the 2/1 suit. Then I would assume we are not allowed to stop below 2NT in competition either?

Well as i said once or twice i dont know sayc, and i dotn think many ppl play this as forcing to 2nt(even those who claim to play sayc),the way i play, 1sp-2c-2s
and 1sp-2c-2d-2sp arent forcing.

[inquiry]

Assuming not playing 2/1 Game Force... .then, over 2S in direct seat...

DBL = takeout, showing short spades, and club suit
3D = natural, showing extras
2NT = good/bad
3C = club suit with extras
3H = hearts and nice extra (go through gb2NT otherwise)
PASS = nothing to bid or lots of spades, partner will balance when short in spades

In balance seat, if responder is short in spades, should double (takeout), otherwise,
2NT = good/bad 2NT
3C = extras
3D = extras
3H = extras
Pass = three spades or more, minimum, or 2 spades, extra minimum no heart tolerance

Using Good/Bad 2NT will keep you out of 3NT at least.

Ben

[luke warm]

my read on this is, opener's pass is forcing and responder's 3c is offering a landing spot while denying a hand that can penalize 2s.. but that's just my opinion

if responder does have diamonds and clubs, going thru 2nt wouldn't accomplish much.. imo

[inquiry]

luke warm, on Sep 30 2004, 04:56 PM, said:

my read on this is, opener's pass is forcing and responder's 3c is offering a landing spot while denying a hand that can penalize 2s.. but that's just my opinion

if responder does have diamonds and clubs, going thru 2nt wouldn't accomplish much.. imo

Jimmy....

Going through 2NT separates a ratty hand with clubs and diamonds, or just diamonds or an invitational hand with diamonds and hearts, from a good hand with clubs and diamonds, or just diamonds or forcing with heart support....

So..

1H-P-2D-2S
P-P- 3H <---- would be forcing

1H-p-2D-2S
P-P- 2N-P
3C-P-3H <--- would not be forcing...

Same applies to the club and diamond auctions with and without 2NT. This alos allows opener to show diamond support with a good hand
1H-P-2D-2S
3D

compared to with a mimumum hand
1H - P - 2D- 2S
2N - P - 3C - P
3D <--- opener has mimumum hand with support.

In the helene's case with clubs and a minimum, responder would not bid 3C, but rather bid 2NT. And opener with a minimum would bid 3C unless he would rather play in diamonds than clubs opposite a minimum hand, in which case opener would rebid 3D. With a good hand where opener was hoping for a taekout double, over 2NT, opener can rebid 3NT, or above 3C at any rate.

If 2D is only forcing to 2S, then pass of 2S is not forcing... but iwth spade shortness responder can not pass.

Ben

[luke warm]

ok, i buy all of that... i guess my whole philosophy of the had stems from my taking the 2d bid as a game force, but the way the question was worded, and the replies to it, show that it isn't a game force... i also took opener's pass to be forcing, but 2nt works there also (opener can bid diamonds with a hatred for clubs)