[4321]

Match (IMPs), EW, W.

pass - (2♠) - pass - (pass)
DBL - pass - ??

2♠ = weak two.

The first question is, what should have W?
The second - what must bid E with A5432_QJ_KQ85_J5 ?

[MrAce]

4321, on 2011-July-20, 23:44, said:

Match (IMPs), EW, W.

pass - (2♠) - pass - (pass)
DBL - pass - ??

2♠ = weak two.

The first question is, what should have W?
The second - what must bid E with A5432_QJ_KQ85_J5 ?

West should have less than opener strength and short in ♠, somewhat 3 suiter hand.

East should not pass this double with 5 bad ♠ imo, even if we defeat 2♠ i doubt we defeat more than 1, +100. I bet we score much better if we play and make 3♦ and we dont have to torture ourselves in 2♠ doubled defense.

[the hog]

I bid 3D. The S are far too poor to pass this out, and partner is a passed hand after all.

[han]

3D. Since partner is a passed hand I don't play 2NT as lebensohl but as scrambling.

[whereagles]

3♦ and I play this as lebensohl.

[han]

Why do you play this as lebensohl? It seems very clear to me that scrambling is better. You can still differentiate in hearts (direct 3H is good, going through 2NT is bad).

[MrAce]

han, on 2011-July-22, 04:00, said:

Why do you play this as lebensohl? It seems very clear to me that scrambling is better. You can still differentiate in hearts (direct 3H is good, going through 2NT is bad).

That is not scramble though. And I am not sure if it is good to play half scramble half lebensohl.

To me, 3♥ direct means u dont want to play ♣ or ♦, you have no tolerance to minors.

Direct 3♥ can be as low as ZERO hcps.

Jxxx
xxxxx
xx
xx

You may argue this hand starts 2 NT first, then u will play 4-3 fits when 4-4 or even 5-4 was available.

(You have 4♣+4♥)2NT and then 3♥ (assume pd bid 3♦ over 2 NT, unless you have an agreement that he has to bid 3♣ even with 1453 or 2443) means u wanted to play 3♣ if possible, if not 3♥.

EDIT : I like scramble too in this position by the way.

[whereagles]

han, on 2011-July-22, 04:00, said:

Why do you play this as lebensohl? It seems very clear to me that scrambling is better. You can still differentiate in hearts (direct 3H is good, going through 2NT is bad).

Well, even opposite a passed pard sometimes you have a decent 13 or 14 and you want to be in game opposite 10-11 across. I could give you examples, but I think you know what I mean.

[4321]

han, on 2011-July-22, 04:00, said:

Why do you play this as lebensohl? It seems very clear to me that scrambling is better. You can still differentiate in hearts (direct 3H is good, going through 2NT is bad).

Scrambling is in use after CONSTRUCTIVE opponent's bids, such as (1♠) - pass - (2♠) - 2nt - ... when 2nt can non be natural.
IMHO Lebensohl is not necessary here too.

Another four questions:

1. Can W have a void in spades?
2. Can S have three spades and 12-13 hcp? Was his pass good in this case?
3. What do you think about The Rule Of Seven by Mike Lawrence?
4. What do you think about 3nt?

[han]

MrAce, on 2011-July-22, 10:52, said:

That is not scramble though.

If you play that 2NT is scrambling, then there are two ways to reach 3H. You can bid it directly, or you can start with 2NT and then bid 3H. So, you don't need to be a kenrexford to want these two auction to have a different meaning. Perhaps you want one of these routs to be stronger than the other.

It is not possible to show a good hand by starting with 2NT. If partner bids 3D and you convert to 3H, then you might have had clubs and hearts, so this auction cannot show a good hand. So it must be right to play that the direct 3H bid shows a good hand (interest in playing 4H), while 2NT shows either 2 suits, or a weak hand with hearts.

If you don't want to call it scrambling because you think scrambling is something else, then don't call it scrambling. I would suggest though that anytime you play scrambling over 2S, play that a direct 3H shows game interest.

[Free]

2NT scrambling gives you 2 routes to 3♥ and shows a good hand when the auction goes ...-2NT-3♣-3♥, but isn't it ambiguous when the auction goes ...-2NT-3♦-3♥? You may have a good hand with ♥, but you can also have ♥+♣.

[han]

I tried to address that issue in my previous post.

[MrAce]

han, on 2011-July-25, 05:00, said:

I tried to address that issue in my previous post.

Yes u tried, and thanks.

But no, what u suggest is not scramble. I say this because scramble targets to find the best fit available and usually played in balancing and/or for part score competition. The way u suggest does not serve to the goal of scramble because you advocate to bid 3♥ with good hands, thus asking me to bid 3♥ with 4♥+4m. Which has the danger of playing a possible 3♥ 4-3 fit while a 5-4 minor fit was available, no ?

Of course what you suggest is not bad, thats not what i am saying, but it ain't risk free. IMO the nature of scramble, due to the fact that it is used mostly (but not neccesarilly) either after a balancing DBL or due to the nature of everyone bidding, frequently about partscore competition, makes it more important to find your best fit rather than worrying about if u have a game or not.

Of course the priority and the frequency is upto the user and how he decides to use it.

[gnasher]

Timo, start with an auction where you would play 2NT as a scramble. Now agree that in that auction:
- With a hand that would previously have scrambled: you still scramble.
- With a hand that would previously have bid 3♥, and some game interest: you bid 3♥
- With a hand that would previously have bid 3♥, and no game interest: you pretend to scramble, then sign off in 3♥.

You've gained a constructive 3♥ bid. What have you lost?

[MrAce]

gnasher, on 2011-July-25, 16:33, said:

Timo, start with an auction where you would play 2NT as a scramble. Now agree that in that auction:
- With a hand that would previously have scrambled: you still scramble.
- With a hand that would previously have bid 3♥, and some game interest: you bid 3♥
- With a hand that would previously have bid 3♥, and no game interest: you pretend to scramble, then sign off in 3♥.

You've gained a constructive 3♥ bid. What have you lost?

1♠-pass-2♠-pass
pass-DBL-pass - 2NT is scramble and i would bid it with xxx KJxx Ax Kxxx, i would not bid 3♥. Pd will balance with Q xxx Axxx Jxxxx. (may not be your taste but ..)

1NT-pass-2♥-pass
2♠-pass-pass-DBL
pass 2NT...

pass-2♠-pass-pass
DBL-pass....

As i said, the way i like it is % 100 effort to play our best fit and partscore and ignore the game possibilities. Do i miss game ever ? Of course, but not frequent enough to worry about it. But i gain more in partscore swings than i lose from missing games in these type of auctions ( at least i believe i do ), especially when other side A-Either did not even balance due to their strict balancing requirements B-Their priority was not to miss game and landed in a wrong trump. C- I recieve less penalty DBL due to the nature of this bidding, because i would bid 2 NT with 5♥+4♣ or 5♣+4♥ or 5♣+5♥ too and i dont give much info about my strength.

EDIT: There are other places where people use scramble, when the DBLer can be actually strong, such as

1♠-pass-2♠-DBL
pass....

Now what u and Han suggest is a MUST to play if u scramble here, but unfortunately i play lebensohl here. So perhaps the reason i play the way i explained is due to me playing scramble in very restricted auctions.

[Zelandakh]

MrAce, on 2011-July-25, 19:10, said:

1♠-pass-2♠-pass
pass-DBL-pass - 2NT is scramble and i would bid it with xxx KJxx Ax Kxxx, i would not bid 3♥.

Using han's method you can still bid 2NT here since you are willing to give up on game possibilities. Nothing has actually been lost because both a direct 3H and 3H via 2NT are effectively sign-offs where you are ignoring game possibilities. Thus it makes sense to allow one of these routes (and han explained already why the direct route is required) to be invitational. It does not matter that partner, having responded to 2NT with 3D and then hearing 3H, does not know whether you have a weak hand with hearts or hearts + clubs because they were not going to bid again anyway.

[MrAce]

Zelandakh, on 2011-July-26, 03:54, said:

Using han's method you can still bid 2NT here since you are willing to give up on game possibilities. Nothing has actually been lost because both a direct 3H and 3H via 2NT are effectively sign-offs where you are ignoring game possibilities. Thus it makes sense to allow one of these routes (and han explained already why the direct route is required) to be invitational. It does not matter that partner, having responded to 2NT with 3D and then hearing 3H, does not know whether you have a weak hand with hearts or hearts + clubs because they were not going to bid again anyway.

Yes, you are absolutely correct. I can have xxxx JTxxx xx xx and i can bid 2NT and then correct to 3♥, while i can use direct 3♥ as invitation. The nonsense i wrote when Han and Andy explained, was due to focusing on 2NT does not neccesarily show bad hand or less than invitation. I stand corrected that i can use direct 3♥ as invitational without any risk as u and Andy said.