BBO Discussion Forums: 1C or 1D? - BBO Discussion Forums

Jump to content

  • 2 Pages +
  • 1
  • 2
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

1C or 1D?

Poll: 1C or 1D? (29 member(s) have cast votes)

Playing Precision, would you open the hand below with 1C or 1D?

  1. 1C (5 votes [17.24%])

    Percentage of vote: 17.24%

  2. 1D (24 votes [82.76%])

    Percentage of vote: 82.76%

Vote Guests cannot vote

#1 User is offline   Hilver 

  • PipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 128
  • Joined: 2006-October-28
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:The Netherlands
  • Interests:Besides bridge, cycling and reading

Posted 2011-July-18, 06:30

You hold in first seat, playing Precision:
A Q
10
A Q 10 9 7 5
K 9 8 7

What would open? 1C or 1D?

Thx

Jan
1

#2 User is offline   Free 

  • mmm Duvel
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 10,728
  • Joined: 2003-July-30
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Belgium
  • Interests:Duvel, Whisky

Posted 2011-July-18, 07:42

Yay I can vote both options!

I'd open 1 because I prefer not to overbid on borderline hands. If opps intervene after a 1 opening we'll have a hard time bidding to a decent spot. If I open 1 on the other hand, I'll be able to push and show good distribution and strength, even if opps intervene. Plus, I don't want to be in game opposite a random 8-pointer with this hand. My rule of thumb is to never upgrade to a strong 1 opening unless you can make game opposite any GF response from partner (which doesn't mean I upgrade every hand that wants to play game opposite 8+HCP in partner's hand!).
"It may be rude to leave to go to the bathroom, but it's downright stupid to sit there and piss yourself" - blackshoe
0

#3 User is offline   mtvesuvius 

  • Vesuvius the Violent Volcano
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 3,216
  • Joined: 2008-December-04
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Tampa-Area, Florida
  • Interests:SLEEPING

Posted 2011-July-18, 08:39

I tend not to upgrade hands unless I am worried about something bad happening if I don't. Even then, I don't usually upgrade unless my long suit is a major -- Otherwise it's too hard to show my hand somewhat accurately if they compete. I'm happy to open this 1.
Yay for the "Ignored Users" feature!
0

#4 User is offline   kayin801 

  • Modern Day Trebuchet Enthusiast
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 738
  • Joined: 2007-October-17
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Western Mass.

Posted 2011-July-18, 13:21

1, despite this being a pretty 15 count. 1 isn't terrible though, just (in my mind) systemically wrong. I think it's a tougher question as to what to rebid after partner's expected response of 1 of a major, since I think 2 and 3 are both okay.
I once yelled at my partner for discarding the 'wrong' card when he was subjected to a squeeze that I allowed by giving the wrong count with too high a card. Now he's allowed to pitch aces when the opponents have the king in the dummy. At trick 2. When he could have followed suit. And blame me.

East4Evil sohcahtoa 4ever!!!!!1
1

#5 User is offline   bigtrain 

  • PipPip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 15
  • Joined: 2009-October-30

Posted 2011-July-18, 14:49

1C is the clear choice. Opening 1D makes the hand impossible to describe... 1D-1x//2D is a huge underbid but 1D-1x//3D buries the clubs. Also the hand easily values 17 or 18 points.
1

#6 User is offline   mycroft 

  • Secretary Bird
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 6,410
  • Joined: 2003-July-12
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Calgary, Canada

Posted 2011-July-18, 15:00

Deleted - I "replied" when I should have edited. Full comment next.
When I go to sea, don't fear for me, Fear For The Storm -- Birdie and the Swansong (tSCoSI)
0

#7 User is offline   mycroft 

  • Secretary Bird
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 6,410
  • Joined: 2003-July-12
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Calgary, Canada

Posted 2011-July-18, 15:01

View Postmycroft, on 2011-July-18, 15:00, said:

As mtvesuvius says, I don't upgrade to 1 unless I can visualize a problem if I don't. Here, I have great options - 1 then 3 get the point across really well, and if partner bids 1NT, I might just 3NT and gamble. If they overcall, at least I got my suit (sort of) in, and partner has lots of options to tell me about potential raises.

Edit: yeah, 3 buries the clubs; but with AQT9xx K9xx do I care much?

I *can* see a problem if I open 1 - we'll be at 3 of a major before my rebid. And it probably makes. Do I want my partner guessing what to do after 1-X (majors)-<some positive>-3M; p-p? No. And if we look for 3NT, they already know what to lead.

Swap the pointed suits and I might open 1; at least I have the boss suit to kick around.

When I go to sea, don't fear for me, Fear For The Storm -- Birdie and the Swansong (tSCoSI)
0

#8 User is offline   bigtrain 

  • PipPip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 15
  • Joined: 2009-October-30

Posted 2011-July-18, 15:31

Personally, I welcome competition over my strong clubs. It frequently aids declarer play and adds the defend option to our menu of choices. So, fear of that competition has little impact on my decision to upgrade. The main "upgrade" issues being true hand value and most effective/efficient auction.
1

#9 User is offline   mtvesuvius 

  • Vesuvius the Violent Volcano
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 3,216
  • Joined: 2008-December-04
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Tampa-Area, Florida
  • Interests:SLEEPING

Posted 2011-July-18, 17:18

View Postbigtrain, on 2011-July-18, 15:31, said:

Personally, I welcome competition over my strong clubs. It frequently aids declarer play and adds the defend option to our menu of choices. So, fear of that competition has little impact on my decision to upgrade. The main "upgrade" issues being true hand value and most effective/efficient auction.

True, but if the concern is being able to show clubs at some point, starting with 1 seems to put you one step behind. Why is this hand really worth so much? The AQ aren't pulling their weight. [Not trying to argue, just interested in why you feel this hand is worth an upgrade, as obviously you have a lot more experience in these situations than I do.]
Yay for the "Ignored Users" feature!
0

#10 User is offline   mycroft 

  • Secretary Bird
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 6,410
  • Joined: 2003-July-12
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Calgary, Canada

Posted 2011-July-18, 17:50

I like it when they come in as well - because usually they have no idea what to do besides "bid something".

It's when they get raised that I don't like it. 2-1 in the majors is when they'll get raised.

Are you sure with this hand that you're winning the partscore battle - and that you'll know after 1C-X-<something>-3S? I'm not.

I'm happy to upgrade hands that look like I'm going to win the auction with. I don't expect to win this one, lots of points or no, if partner doesn't take the right decision. And therefore, I'm not going to go out of my way to start an auction that will likely make me captain - I'd rather give partner what she needs to be captain, if I can.
When I go to sea, don't fear for me, Fear For The Storm -- Birdie and the Swansong (tSCoSI)
0

#11 User is offline   the hog 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 10,614
  • Joined: 2003-March-07
  • Location:Laos
  • Interests:Wagner and Bridge

Posted 2011-July-18, 18:56

This is an easy 1D bid. Sometimes you can be maximum when you open.
Bigtrain, you comment about losing the Cs. Open this 1c and I would suggest that you have more more chance of losing the Cs than with a 1D opening.
"The King of Hearts a broadsword bears, the Queen of Hearts a rose." W. H. Auden.
0

#12 User is offline   dake50 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 2,211
  • Joined: 2006-April-22

Posted 2011-July-18, 19:11

This is just the hand type I use 3D for: good 6+D, weak Majors, 14-18.
I open that.
Have you all tallied your +/- (IMP or MP) for your 3D as weak preempt?
I didn't like my tally.
Use something else - intermediate jump overcall opening.
0

#13 User is offline   semeai 

  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 582
  • Joined: 2010-June-10
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:USA
  • Interests:Having eleven-syllable interests
    Counting modulo five

Posted 2011-July-18, 19:38

This hand is certainly worth 16+. For example K&R gives 18.9.

I don't usually play precision, so I don't have a feel for borderline minor suit hands. Here this is almost downgrading, but maybe it makes sense in the minors, thinking that your jump rebid will make up for it. On this hand, though, bigtrain's comment makes sense, and he'd also have the experience to know what works certainly.

For comparison: Do people open 1C on AQ T KQ8752 AJ74?

K&R gives 18 on this one.
0

#14 User is offline   mtvesuvius 

  • Vesuvius the Violent Volcano
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 3,216
  • Joined: 2008-December-04
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Tampa-Area, Florida
  • Interests:SLEEPING

Posted 2011-July-18, 20:17

View Postdake50, on 2011-July-18, 19:11, said:

This is just the hand type I use 3D for: good 6+D, weak Majors, 14-18.
I open that.
Have you all tallied your +/- (IMP or MP) for your 3D as weak preempt?
I didn't like my tally.
Use something else - intermediate jump overcall opening.

LOL
Yay for the "Ignored Users" feature!
0

#15 User is offline   the hog 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 10,614
  • Joined: 2003-March-07
  • Location:Laos
  • Interests:Wagner and Bridge

Posted 2011-July-18, 20:57

View Postmtvesuvius, on 2011-July-18, 20:17, said:

LOL

redouble lol
"The King of Hearts a broadsword bears, the Queen of Hearts a rose." W. H. Auden.
1

#16 User is offline   Free 

  • mmm Duvel
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 10,728
  • Joined: 2003-July-30
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Belgium
  • Interests:Duvel, Whisky

Posted 2011-July-19, 05:43

Please guys, stop LOL-ing and redouble LOL-ing, before Lurpoa and her gang start hijacking this threat. This is a good question.

View Postsemeai, on 2011-July-18, 19:38, said:

This hand is certainly worth 16+. For example K&R gives 18.9.

The hand is indeed worth more than 16HCP, but that's not really the point when playing precision. Sometimes it's just easier to start with a limited opening and push later on to show your maximum and distributional hand. You don't need to open 1 because the hand is worth 16+HCP, you need to open 1 because you have the points.

In many cases it's difficult to describe your hand when opponents interfere after a strong 1 opening (which is quite frequent). Here the auction can easily start 1-(3)-... and you'll have a lot of trouble. If you open 1, you can rebid them or bid , in both cases showing a nice distributional hand. Getting your suits in early is more important than the strength your hand is worth. Limited openings allow you to bid your suits, a strong 1 opening does not.

Also note that distributional hands with 14-15HCP will probably get more interference than the same distributions with 16-17HCP (because opps tend to have more values). Therefore it's pretty unwise to upgrade your hand which results in a difficult auction. Pretty much the only reason to upgrade hands is if you have like 9 tricks in a Major suit contract.

View Postsemeai, on 2011-July-18, 19:38, said:

For comparison: Do people open 1C on AQ T KQ8752 AJ74?

K&R gives 18 on this one.

This hand has 16HCP, so I'll open 1 because I pretty much 'have to'. It's as unwise to downgrade hands into limited openings as it is to upgrade hands into a strong opening imo.
"It may be rude to leave to go to the bathroom, but it's downright stupid to sit there and piss yourself" - blackshoe
0

#17 User is offline   whereagles 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 14,900
  • Joined: 2004-May-11
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Portugal
  • Interests:Everything!

Posted 2011-July-19, 13:29

1 + 3 seems canonical. Who cares about clubs anyway?

A downside of opening 1 is pard with 5-4 majors and a decent 7 is likely to reply positively (those hands are typically hard to bid if you respond the negative 1), in which case you'll likely end up in a trickless 3NT.
0

#18 User is offline   the hog 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 10,614
  • Joined: 2003-March-07
  • Location:Laos
  • Interests:Wagner and Bridge

Posted 2011-July-19, 19:27

View PostFree, on 2011-July-19, 05:43, said:

Please guys, stop LOL-ing and redouble LOL-ing, before Lurpoa and her gang start hijacking this threat. This is a good question.


The hand is indeed worth more than 16HCP, but that's not really the point when playing precision. Sometimes it's just easier to start with a limited opening and push later on to show your maximum and distributional hand. You don't need to open 1 because the hand is worth 16+HCP, you need to open 1 because you have the points.

In many cases it's difficult to describe your hand when opponents interfere after a strong 1 opening (which is quite frequent). Here the auction can easily start 1-(3)-... and you'll have a lot of trouble. If you open 1, you can rebid them or bid , in both cases showing a nice distributional hand. Getting your suits in early is more important than the strength your hand is worth. Limited openings allow you to bid your suits, a strong 1 opening does not.

Also note that distributional hands with 14-15HCP will probably get more interference than the same distributions with 16-17HCP (because opps tend to have more values). Therefore it's pretty unwise to upgrade your hand which results in a difficult auction. Pretty much the only reason to upgrade hands is if you have like 9 tricks in a Major suit contract.


This hand has 16HCP, so I'll open 1 because I pretty much 'have to'. It's as unwise to downgrade hands into limited openings as it is to upgrade hands into a strong opening imo.


Free, both the volcanic one's and my comment referred to a 3D opening showing this hand. However you are correct, a lol does not add anything to the debate. However to use a 3D opening for this seems ridiculous to me.
"The King of Hearts a broadsword bears, the Queen of Hearts a rose." W. H. Auden.
0

#19 User is offline   mtvesuvius 

  • Vesuvius the Violent Volcano
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 3,216
  • Joined: 2008-December-04
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Tampa-Area, Florida
  • Interests:SLEEPING

Posted 2011-July-19, 20:48

View Postthe hog, on 2011-July-19, 19:27, said:

Free, both the volcanic one's and my comment referred to a 3D opening showing this hand. However you are correct, a lol does not add anything to the debate. However to use a 3D opening for this seems ridiculous to me.

These were my thoughts as well -- I figured a LOL would do the trick.

Just the thought of playing 3 as that is making me sick to my stomach.
Yay for the "Ignored Users" feature!
0

#20 User is offline   WellSpyder 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 1,627
  • Joined: 2009-November-30
  • Location:Oxfordshire, England

Posted 2011-July-20, 09:50

View Postmtvesuvius, on 2011-July-19, 20:48, said:

Just the thought of playing 3 as that is making me sick to my stomach.

This is too strong for an intermediate 3as I play it. But I have found in the one partnership where I play 3/ as showing 10-14 points and a good 6-card suit rather than as a more traditional pre-empt that it can be a big points winner. The biggest gains are probably when oppo overcall in much the same way as they would over a normal pre-empt only to find that 3rd hand can make a penalty double. But if they decide not to overcall they can still easily be pre-empted out of game. There are also hands on which this opening makes it easy for us to bid a low point-count 3N, of course.
1

  • 2 Pages +
  • 1
  • 2
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

1 User(s) are reading this topic
0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users