[philben]

In Challenge the Champs the Polish Club sequence 1C 1H 3C was described as 18+, at least 5-4 in the monors. Can anyone tell me more about that?

[hrothgar]

philben, on 2011-August-02, 08:53, said:

In Challenge the Champs the Polish Club sequence 1C 1H 3C was described as 18+, at least 5-4 in the monors. Can anyone tell me more about that?

Playing Polish club, the auction

1C - 1H
2C

shows much stronger hand than normal (minimum strength single suited hands with 6+ clubs are put into the 2C opening)

You don't need the 3C rebid to show the strong single suited hand, so you might as well use it for something else

[philben]

hrothgar, on 2011-August-02, 09:15, said:

Playing Polish club, the auction

1C - 1H
2C

shows much stronger hand than normal (minimum strength single suited hands with 6+ clubs are put into the 2C opening)

You don't need the 3C rebid to show the strong single suited hand, so you might as well use it for something else

[philben]

Yes, but what exactly does 3C mean? Any 5-4? Does it deny 3 hearts? Do you know what the responses are?

[helene_t]

I think it denies three hearts, since with three hearts you could rebid 2♦ (asking bid)

[semeai]

philben, on 2011-August-02, 08:53, said:

In Challenge the Champs the Polish Club sequence 1C 1H 3C was described as 18+, at least 5-4 in the monors. Can anyone tell me more about that?

philben, on 2011-August-02, 09:23, said:

Yes, but what exactly does 3C mean? Any 5-4? Does it deny 3 hearts? Do you know what the responses are?

This isn't the standard Polish club meaning as far as I know, but it's a reasonable one. I'll explain:

Standard 1C-1H followups:

1S: Forcing 1 round, can be strong
1N: weak notrump
2C: forcing 1 round, 15+ with 5+ clubs (or, over 1C-1S, 1-4-4-4, but only if GF)
2D: "fit-reverse" or "odwrotka", GF with 3+ card support for hearts
2H: raise with 12-14 hand
2S: GF with 5+ good spades
2N: GF balanced without 3 card support
3C: GF with long clubs
3D: GF with long diamonds

Notice that to show long diamonds, you need to bid all the way up at 3D because of the artificial (and fundamental to polish club) 2D bid. This makes it yet more challenging to show hands with both minors, especially 5D-4C. Polish standard (WJ00, WJ05) doesn't mention what to do with 5D-4C. I assume with 5C-4D you bid 2C playing WJ.

The 2C bid is already forcing for 1 round, so it is possible to put the GF with long clubs hands there and put both minors in 3C. Apparently this is what the pair bidding in Challenge the Champs did. I don't know more details of how they play it, but it should deny 3 hearts because otherwise with GF strength you can just bid the artificial 2D.

Matula's book on the Polish club has a different solution. He instead keeps 3C as long clubs, but uses 3NT to mean 3-1-5-4 on this auction (and 1-3-5-4 over 1S). In addition, he uses 1C-1S;3H as 1-4-5-3 (with 4-1-5-3 over 1C-1H, you just bid 1S, which is forcing 1 round). With 5C-4D you just bid 2C, forcing 1 round.

[Free]

A new trend is to play 2NT as 4 card fit and 2♦ as GF with less than 4♥. I think this also has inferences for 3m rebids, because with a 3 card fit you'll bid 2♦ first, while if you're short you'll probably bid 3m. I don't have much experience with PC though...

[philben]

semeai, on 2011-August-02, 10:58, said:

This isn't the standard Polish club meaning as far as I know, but it's a reasonable one. I'll explain:

Standard 1C-1H followups:

1S: Forcing 1 round, can be strong
1N: weak notrump
2C: forcing 1 round, 15+ with 5+ clubs (or, over 1C-1S, 1-4-4-4, but only if GF)
2D: "fit-reverse" or "odwrotka", GF with 3+ card support for hearts
2H: raise with 12-14 hand
2S: GF with 5+ good spades
2N: GF balanced without 3 card support
3C: GF with long clubs
3D: GF with long diamonds

Notice that to show long diamonds, you need to bid all the way up at 3D because of the artificial (and fundamental to polish club) 2D bid. This makes it yet more challenging to show hands with both minors, especially 5D-4C. Polish standard (WJ00, WJ05) doesn't mention what to do with 5D-4C. I assume with 5C-4D you bid 2C playing WJ.

The 2C bid is already forcing for 1 round, so it is possible to put the GF with long clubs hands there and put both minors in 3C. Apparently this is what the pair bidding in Challenge the Champs did. I don't know more details of how they play it, but it should deny 3 hearts because otherwise with GF strength you can just bid the artificial 2D.

Matula's book on the Polish club has a different solution. He instead keeps 3C as long clubs, but uses 3NT to mean 3-1-5-4 on this auction (and 1-3-5-4 over 1S). In addition, he uses 1C-1S;3H as 1-4-5-3 (with 4-1-5-3 over 1C-1H, you just bid 1S, which is forcing 1 round). With 5C-4D you just bid 2C, forcing 1 round.

[philben]

Matula seems to have a good answer to describe some difficult hands. I guess those bids need to be limited to 18-20 since thay take up so much room. I suppose then 1C 1H 3C could show 5+D, 4+C and no 3 card major. I'd still like to know the specifics of Jassam's sequence in Challenge the Champs though.

[semeai]

Free, on 2011-August-03, 01:37, said:

A new trend is to play 2NT as 4 card fit and 2♦ as GF with less than 4♥. I think this also has inferences for 3m rebids, because with a 3 card fit you'll bid 2♦ first, while if you're short you'll probably bid 3m. I don't have much experience with PC though...

What hand types is this 2♦: anything with exactly 3 card support, plus any balanced hand, plus maybe some others? Do you know follow-ups?

philben, on 2011-August-03, 10:52, said:

Matula seems to have a good answer to describe some difficult hands. I guess those bids need to be limited to 18-20 since thay take up so much room. I suppose then 1C 1H 3C could show 5+D, 4+C and no 3 card major. I'd still like to know the specifics of Jassam's sequence in Challenge the Champs though.

Yes, surely the 1C-1H/S;3N hand should be limited to 18-20. I suppose with stronger you choose to bid 2C, 2N, or 3D. The 1C-1S;3H hand can be be unlimited.

Dan Neill's systems site has a bunch of write-ups of non-standard Polish club systems. There are several that use 2D for a variety of hands somewhat along the lines Free describes (e.g. one has 5+D or 4+support, another has various other minor suit hands in there), but I didn't find any with 3C for both minors.

[Free]

semeai, on 2011-August-03, 11:40, said:

What hand types is this 2♦: anything with exactly 3 card support, plus any balanced hand, plus maybe some others? Do you know follow-ups?

It's called "Odwyrtka". You can find more information about this in WJ2005. Another alternative is "Bubrotka".

[philben]

Follow-ups to the 2D Odwyrtka bid are essentially natural: rebid a 5 card major, bid 2S after 1C 1H 2D with 4-4 in the majors, show a biddable 5+ card minor or bid 2NT. Jumps show excellent suits with or without a short suit (a jumps in new suit is a splinter in support of yourself).
The 2NT bid over 1C 1H/S now shows 4 card support. Responder bid 4H/S with 7-8 balanced. With 9-11 bid a biddable 5 card minor, 3H/S, or splinter. With 12+ bid 3NT. The splinter could be out of the 9-11 range if you judge it is the best way to investigate slam.
We use this but I still think the 3C bid showing 5+/4+ in the minors could be useful. We can handle the big club suit hand by starting with 2C. We can also handle the big diamond suit hands starting with 2D, so it seems 3C and 3D (over 1C 1M) should be used to describe some difficult hands with both minors, since on many auctions staring with 1C 1M 2C/D it may not be clear if 3 of the other minor is a real suit.