[jillybean]

K, AQ5, AKQJT643, 7

(P) P (2♥) X
(P) 2♠ (P) ?

[han]

The hand is too strong to double and bid 3D, and double followed by 3NT shows a different hand. So, why did I double?

And what's the form of scoring? The form of scoring seems relevant, at MPS 5D looks less attractive than at IMPs. At MPs I would bid 3NT over 2H.

[jillybean]

This was a hand I kibitzed on BBO, "everyone" doubled first.
Scoring was MP but I'm interested what you would do at IMP also.

[han]

To be honest I don't give too much value to the BBO auctions. The typical BBO player is too weak to understand the B/I forum (and I'm not even talking about the kenrexford posts). I don't mean that in a condescending way, it just seems that most online bridge players play very casually and haven't studied the game much at all.

It's an interesting hand. As I said, at matchpoints I would bid 3NT immediately. Double followed by 3NT suggests a more balanced hand, and I don't want partner to convert to 4S or to bid 4C with 5-5 in the black suits. Although it is easily possible that 3NT goes down or that slam makes, the chances for overtricks in 3NT are high (not only a heart lead but also a spade lead can immediately present us with a 10th trick). At MPs 430/630 will often score well.

At IMPS we are more interested in the game that makes most often. As we are too strong for double followed by 3D, it seems that we cannot involve partner below 3NT and we have to decide for ourselves. It's harder in this case. 5D could be good opposite a 0-count, for example if partner has xxxx xx 9xx xxxx then 5D is on the heart hook which is likely to win. I'd say that in practice 5D makes a little bit less often than (a directly bid) 3NT, because the opponents will so often misdefend against 3NT. But as we may still have slam (give partner the same hand with a black ace), I think it's best to start with 3H followed by 4D.

I'm assuming that 3H shows a strong single suited hand, some play it as Michaels.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

jillybean, on 2011-June-22, 07:24, said:

K, AQ5, AKQJT643, 7

(P) P (2♥) X
(P) 2♠ (P) ?

(p) - p - (2H) - 4NT = regular Ace-ask

If NO Ace, sign-off in 5D
If 1 Ace, 6D
....( surely, the ♥K is onside ) .

[manudude03]

3NT at MPs, 5D at IMPs. Partner should know aces are gold. 4NT even if agreed as ace asking isn't enough, how do you know partner won't put down Jxxx xxx xx Axxx where slam has next to no play even with the ♥K onside?

[jillybean]

Thanks Han.

[jillybean]

Assuming 3♥ is strong, single suited hand how does partner respond?

(P) P (2♥) 3♥ (P) ?

[Stephen Tu]

3♥ is a strong single suited hand (presumed to be minor) *asking* for a heart stopper. Partner is expected to bid 3nt with a stopper, will probably try spades with 5+ spades and no stopper, and otherwise bid 4♣ to get out in your minor (or 5♣ if wants game in your minor, or 4♥ with slam interest and control in hearts).

Thus, you usually want to avoid making the bid when *you* are the one with the stopper, since partner won't have it and you miss 3nt when he bids 4♣. Unless you have such a hand that wants to play 5m instead of 3nt regardless, and/or feel this is the best way of exploring for possible slam. Direct 5m can perhaps be distinguished from 3♥ followed by 5m.

[mgoetze]

TWO4BRIDGE, on 2011-June-22, 09:53, said:

(p) - p - (2H) - 4NT = regular Ace-ask

Don, you need to add more text to your posts. Are you saying this is a good way to play, or are you saying this is a standard way to play, or both?

Personally I think I would hate to be playing this convention.

[jillybean]

Stephen Tu, on 2011-June-23, 16:17, said:

3♥ is a strong single suited hand (presumed to be minor) *asking* for a heart stopper. Partner is expected to bid 3nt with a stopper, will probably try spades with 5+ spades and no stopper, and otherwise bid 4♣ to get out in your minor (or 5♣ if wants game in your minor, or 4♥ with slam interest and control in hearts).

Thus, you usually want to avoid making the bid when *you* are the one with the stopper, since partner won't have it and you miss 3nt when he bids 4♣. Unless you have such a hand that wants to play 5m instead of 3nt regardless, and/or feel this is the best way of exploring for possible slam. Direct 5m can perhaps be distinguished from 3♥ followed by 5m.

Thanks. How do you bid a single suit, strong, spade hand?

[Bbradley62]

mgoetze, on 2011-June-23, 17:14, said:

TWO4BRIDGE, on 2011-June-22, 09:53, said:

(p) - p - (2H) - 4NT = regular Ace-ask

Personally I think I would hate to be playing this convention.

Then, would 4NT be better as unusual for minors, or something else?

[Stephen Tu]

jillybean, on 2011-June-23, 21:33, said:

Thanks. How do you bid a single suit, strong, spade hand?

Over preempts, jump overcalls are natural and strong. So you would just jump overcall spades to 3 or 4 usually. Jump overcalls to minors, like (2♥)-4♦, however, are often played as "leaping michaels" by conventional agreement among better players, showing a strong 5-5 with that minor and the other major. So if you have a hand such as you originally posted, generally you have to overcall 3nt or 5d, if leaping michaels was agreed.

Double followed by new suit spade bids would tend to be shorter spades (5 rather than good 6, 7+), and tolerance for other strains.

[mgoetze]

Bbradley62, on 2011-June-23, 21:47, said:

Then, would 4NT be better as unusual for minors, or something else?

I would take it as a two-suiter, almost always both minors (always if playing Leaping Michaels).

[TWO4BRIDGE]

mgoetze, on 2011-June-24, 11:28, said:

I would take it [ 4NT ] as a two-suiter, almost always both minors (always if playing Leaping Michaels).

Sorry, I should have said "one agreed version" for Leaping Michaels :

( 2H ) - ??

4C! = ♣/♠
4D! = ♦/♠
4H! = ♣/♦
3H! = stop-ask
4NT = Blackwood
3S/4S = long ♠, strong

Similar structure for a weak-2S open.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
You can find (2M) - 4M! = minors in at least 2 references:
The Bridge Encyclopedia and Amalya Kearse's book: BRIDGE CONVENTIONS COMPLETE.

This post has been edited by TWO4BRIDGE: 2011-June-24, 14:17

[mgoetze]

TWO4BRIDGE, on 2011-June-24, 14:14, said:

4H! = ♣/♦

Well there are other possible meanings for 4♥, e.g. "to play".

[TWO4BRIDGE]

mgoetze, on 2011-June-24, 15:57, said:

Well there are other possible meanings for 4♥, e.g. "to play".

( 2H ) - 4H! = to play ??

[han]

4H and 4NT both show the minors, 4H is stronger than 4NT. I thought this was standard, I've never heard of 4NT being used as blackwood and it strikes me as odd.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

han, on 2011-June-26, 07:34, said:

4H and 4NT both show the minors, 4H is stronger than 4NT. I thought this was standard, I've never heard of 4NT being used as blackwood and it strikes me as odd.

The reason given for 4M! = minors is that it "frees up" 4NT for Blackwood.

However, some experts prefer the reverse : 4M! = Blackwood and 4NT! = minors .
The reasoning is that in the Blackwood case, if they are off TWO Aces, they can stop in 5-minor.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Do you really need TWO bids to show the minors ?