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Transfer or Stayman with 5-4 Majors?

#1 User is offline   KamalK 

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Posted 2011-June-20, 02:59

Hello

I am always confused when Pd opens 1NT and I have 5-4 Majors with 7 HCP

This was dealt.



Transfer or Stayman? We could miss a 4-4 fit in Majors (not here though)

One kib's view was to bid 2 and if pd responds 2, then I shd bid 2 which says "to play".

Is that right? Your views please.

Thanks

Kamal
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#2 User is offline   CSGibson 

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Posted 2011-June-20, 03:08

like everything else, it is important to have an agreement with partner about what these sequences might mean. I have the agreement with my own partner that we frequently use stayman with these hands, and then correct to 2 to show a garbage stayman pick-a-major hand. We have that agreement only because we have a different forcing meaning for stayman followed by 2. With a partnership that does not use the sequence 1N-2-2-2/ for any other hand type, to play makes a lot of sense.
Chris Gibson
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#3 User is offline   KamalK 

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Posted 2011-June-20, 03:21

View PostCSGibson, on 2011-June-20, 03:08, said:

With a partnership that does not use the sequence 1N-2-2-2/ for any other hand type, to play makes a lot of sense.


Ok. yes sounds right for causal partners. Thanks
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#4 User is offline   KamalK 

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Posted 2011-June-20, 03:27

View PostCSGibson, on 2011-June-20, 03:08, said:

I have the agreement with my own partner that we frequently use stayman with these hands, and then correct to 2 to show a garbage stayman pick-a-major hand. We have that agreement only because we have a different forcing meaning for stayman followed by 2.


So then which Major does pd "pick" with 3-3 holding?
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#5 User is offline   P_Marlowe 

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Posted 2011-June-20, 03:48

Hi

If you are in a casual partnership, there is a limit, if it comes to precision.

It is quite common to bid stayman with 5 hearts and 4 spades, and if opener bids
2D, 2H asks opener to bid his better OF, with 3-3 opener will pass.

With 5 spades and 4 hearts transfer.

Simplicity has its merrits: Always transfer to the 5 card major, if you dont want
to make an invite.

With kind regards
Marlowe
With kind regards
Uwe Gebhardt (P_Marlowe)
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#6 User is offline   Antrax 

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Posted 2011-June-20, 03:55

Mike Lawrence advocates that after a 2 response from opener, responder bids 2 with longer spades than hearts and 2 with equal length or longer hearts.
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#7 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2011-June-20, 04:24

View PostKamalK, on 2011-June-20, 03:27, said:

So then which Major does pd "pick" with 3-3 holding?

If responder can't bid 2 with longer spades and a weak hand(because 2 would mean something else), then opener has to know which of responder's suits may be longer when responder bids stayman followed by 2.

Agree with p to use stayman with 54* as well as with 5-5. With 54 you will have to transfer to spades since if you bid stayman followed by 2, opener will pass if he has 3-3. (Or worse, 2-2, if he is one of those players who sometimes open 1NT with 2-2 in the majors).

*You can also agree the opposite: only to use garbage stayman with longer spades (or equal length). This has the advantage that opener declares more often. But it is probably slightly more difficult to remember, since it feels more natural that 2 means that hearts is at least as long as spades.
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#8 User is offline   gwnn 

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Posted 2011-June-20, 05:14

hanp recently made the point that it's best to have opener bid 2 with 3-3 in the majors. That means that responder should only bid (1NT-2; 2-) 2 on 54 or 5-5. The reason is that this way opener plays as many contracts as possible (within simple constraints).
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#9 User is offline   bluecalm 

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Posted 2011-June-20, 05:57

Quote

(1NT-2♣; 2♦-) 2♥ on 5♠4♥ or 5-5


I think you meant 5-4 ?

As to original question, it depends what are 2/2 after 2 I think agreeing that those are to play is quite good and simple. Then you always bid stayman with 5-4majors.
The drawback of this is that you lose the way of inviting with 5 - 4 but that's life. It always never comes up and you can always either force to game or signoff if partner doesn't have 4 card fit.
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#10 User is offline   gwnn 

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Posted 2011-June-20, 06:06

View Postbluecalm, on 2011-June-20, 05:57, said:

I think you meant 5-4 ?

no. like I said in my short post above yours, in this structure opener corrects to 2 with 3-3.
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#11 User is offline   han 

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Posted 2011-June-20, 06:29

View Postgwnn, on 2011-June-20, 05:14, said:

hanp recently made the point that it's best to have opener bid 2 with 3-3 in the majors. That means that responder should only bid (1NT-2; 2-) 2 on 54 or 5-5. The reason is that this way opener plays as many contracts as possible (within simple constraints).


I don't know if this is best but that's how I play it. We don't have 1NT - 2C - 2D - 2S available because we play that that's invitational with 5 spades.

With a weak hand and 45 we generally transfer to hearts.
Please note: I am interested in boring, bog standard, 2/1.

- hrothgar
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#12 User is offline   VM1973 

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Posted 2011-June-20, 07:27

Personally I play 1NT-P-3 as puppet Stayman since I often open 1NT with a 5-card major so pretty much all game-going hands without a 5-card major go that route.

Many people play Smolen after 2 or as an invitational sequence. Without a prior agreement, I would simply transfer to spades and hope for the best.
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#13 User is offline   TWO4BRIDGE 

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Posted 2011-June-20, 08:57

View PostKamalK, on 2011-June-20, 03:27, said:

So then which Major does pd "pick" with 3-3 holding?

Play "Trash ( or Garbage ) Stayman" to solve your problem.

( As mentioned earlier, the 2S is normally used as "invitational" with a 5s/4h hand )

1NT - 2C
2D - 2H! = WEAK ( less than invite values) with a 4/4 or 5s/4h .
??
..With an equal number of Sp ( 3/3 ) or greater ( 3s/2h ) Opener bids 2S
..otherwise PASS 2H ( 2s/3h ).

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
When holding a WEAK 4s/5h, just transfer to Hts and PASS, ( forget about Sp ).
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#14 User is offline   CSGibson 

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Posted 2011-June-20, 09:46

View PostKamalK, on 2011-June-20, 03:27, said:

So then which Major does pd "pick" with 3-3 holding?


in our partnership we do not distinguish as to which is longer, spades or hearts. Typically opener will look at suit quality and decide from that, or, if both are equal quality, convert to spades so that the lead runs into the 1N opener, making it less likely that the long hand will be forced right away.

Playing this way requires you to be comfortable declaring a 4-3 fit, as you will be playing that approximately 55-60% of the time (if partner has 5 of one of the majors, you are slightly less likely to have 3 of that major, and thus correct to the 4-3)...I don't recommend it for beginner/intermediate players, preferring the simple solution of bidding your better major to play, or the transfer to hearts/bid this way with 5 spades solution.
Chris Gibson
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#15 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2011-June-20, 12:07

With a pick-up partner you should probably just assume what seems to be standard in America, namely that with a weak hand you transfer to the major and with an invitational or better hand you use Stayman. As others have pointed out there are plenty of other treatments out there but I would suggest steering clear of them until you are comfortable with the basic system.
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#16 User is offline   ArtK78 

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Posted 2011-June-20, 13:07

View PostP_Marlowe, on 2011-June-20, 03:48, said:

Hi

If you are in a casual partnership, there is a limit, if it comes to precision.

It is quite common to bid stayman with 5 hearts and 4 spades, and if opener bids
2D, 2H asks opener to bid his better OF, with 3-3 opener will pass.

With 5 spades and 4 hearts transfer.

Simplicity has its merrits: Always transfer to the 5 card major, if you dont want
to make an invite.

With kind regards
Marlowe


I agree with Marlowe. Always transfer.

Besides, I hate garbage Stayman. When I bid Stayman and bid 2M over 2, it is invitational.
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