[KamalK]

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Tournament. Scoring MPs. New partners. I am Intermediate, pd was Advanced
I was East and Opps sacrificed and went -2 but we missed 5♠

Question : Could we have bid 5♠? Me or partner?

Appreciate all inputs.

Many thanks

Kamal
(kamalk on BBO)

[TWO4BRIDGE]

4D! splinter ( instead of 4S ) .

[Bbradley62]

Competent defense sets 5♠. Your opponents earned their good score by bidding 5♦. No blame for your side.

[matmat]

Bbradley62, on 2011-June-16, 23:12, said:

Competent defense sets 5♠. Your opponents earned their good score by bidding 5♦. No blame for your side.

I have to admit that the 1♦ overcall would not have crossed my mind.

[mtvesuvius]

Bbradley62, on 2011-June-16, 23:12, said:

Competent defense sets 5♠. Your opponents earned their good score by bidding 5♦. No blame for your side.

5♠ cannot be beaten, since when South ruffs a heart trick, he allows declarer to ruff the last heart in dummy after drawing trump. If he pitches instead, declarer wins and exits a heart, planning to ruff the last heart high. None of this is very double-dummy, since North's 2♥ bid gives away the layout.

Anyway, on the auction, as East you did all you possibly could. In fact partner probably expected a fourth spade from you, you have no ruffing values and a lot of defense, I think double of 5♦ is mandatory.

South made an absurd overcall, which unfortunately for you, paid off today. It's not every day he finds partner with KQJxx♦. As North, I would have just blasted 5♦... By him waiting to do so, he gave you a chance to support partner and for your partner to set a forcing pass.

I think Don's suggestion of 4♦ with the West hand is complete resulting... 4♦ is a slam try, and that hand is nowhere near worth a slam try. There is not much in this auction that suggests North is about to bid 5♦ now, and so West should be thinking constructively. Even if North does bid on, will East really be that much better off? Yes, your 3 small diamonds are nice, but even in the current auction you can tell you are facing diamond shortness. This is not a case where 4♦ is merely helping partner if they bid on.

4♠ by West sets a forcing pass anyway IMO, and I don't think West has a hand that warrants moving again over the double... Just give North a good heart suit and you're cooked. Partner would bid the same way holding KJx xxx Qxx AKxx, and even Kxxx xx Qxx AKxx isn't exactly a laydown in 5♠.

In summary, I think there is no blame, you did all you could and got screwed by a horrible overcall by South.

[KamalK]

TWO4BRIDGE, on 2011-June-16, 22:41, said:

4D! splinter ( instead of 4S ) .

Thanks Don, but even after 4D spl they wd still bid 5♦ with N's holding? And with my xxx♦ I would have to decide on X or 5?

[KamalK]

matmat, on 2011-June-16, 23:24, said:

I have to admit that the 1♦ overcall would not have crossed my mind.

Indeed

[KamalK]

Adam, thanks for the detailed analysis. Appreciate. Very useful. So at the end of the day, it just worked out for them. Glad you agree about the X. I'll forward this to my pd too

[KamalK]

mtvesuvius, on 2011-June-16, 23:25, said:

Anyway, on the auction, as East you did all you possibly could. In fact partner probably expected a fourth spade from you, you have no ruffing values and a lot of defense, I think double of 5♦ is mandatory.

As an aside, does the my bid 'promise' an extra ♠ card?

[matmat]

KamalK, on 2011-June-16, 23:46, said:

As an aside, does the 4♣ bid 'promise' an extra ♠ card?

No, but as the 1♠ response is often made on four cards (after the sequence 1♣-(1♦), the raise to 2♠ tends to also show four cards. This is not mandatory, of course, and instances of people raising on 3 do occur. Gadgets that many use to resolve the 3 vs. 4 card raise when there is interference are support doubles and support redoubles (google around).

[KamalK]

matmat, on 2011-June-16, 23:52, said:

No, but as the 1♠ response is often made on four cards (after the sequence 1♣-(1♦), the raise to 2♠ tends to also show four cards. This is not mandatory, of course, and instances of people raising on 3 do occur. Gadgets that many use to resolve the 3 vs. 4 card raise when there is interference are support doubles and support redoubles (google around).

Ahh ok got it ty. So my pd expected me to read her 1S as a 4 card o/c and my response to show 4 also. Thanks

[Cyberyeti]

mtvesuvius, on 2011-June-16, 23:25, said:

5♠ cannot be beaten, since when South ruffs a heart trick, he allows declarer to ruff the last heart in dummy after drawing trump. If he pitches instead, declarer wins and exits a heart, planning to ruff the last heart high. None of this is very double-dummy, since North's 2♥ bid gives away the layout.

You have to be a bit more careful than that, if a heart is led you have to play a diamond next as a scissors coup to avoid 2 heart ruffs. Fortunately the bidding has made it obvious to win the first heart in dummy.

I agree with another poster that 4♦ splinter is a good bid rather than 4♠, but I'm still not 100% sure 5♠ gets bid.

[mgoetze]

mtvesuvius, on 2011-June-16, 23:25, said:

4♠ by West sets a forcing pass anyway IMO, and I don't think West has a hand that warrants moving again over the double...

Sure, but is it clear for East to double here, with 3 small diamonds?

[KamalK]

mgoetze, on 2011-June-17, 05:39, said:

Sure, but is it clear for East to double here, with 3 small diamonds?

Thanks. I was encouraged to X with K♥ after the 2♥ bid and AK♣ holding. But yes the xxx in ♦ was a problem.

[VM1973]

mtvesuvius, on 2011-June-16, 23:25, said:

5♠ cannot be beaten, since when South ruffs a heart trick, he allows declarer to ruff the last heart in dummy after drawing trump. If he pitches instead, declarer wins and exits a heart, planning to ruff the last heart high. None of this is very double-dummy, since North's 2♥ bid gives away the layout.

Anyway, on the auction, as East you did all you possibly could. In fact partner probably expected a fourth spade from you, you have no ruffing values and a lot of defense, I think double of 5♦ is mandatory.

South made an absurd overcall, which unfortunately for you, paid off today. It's not every day he finds partner with KQJxx♦. As North, I would have just blasted 5♦... By him waiting to do so, he gave you a chance to support partner and for your partner to set a forcing pass.

I think Don's suggestion of 4♦ with the West hand is complete resulting... 4♦ is a slam try, and that hand is nowhere near worth a slam try. There is not much in this auction that suggests North is about to bid 5♦ now, and so West should be thinking constructively. Even if North does bid on, will East really be that much better off? Yes, your 3 small diamonds are nice, but even in the current auction you can tell you are facing diamond shortness. This is not a case where 4♦ is merely helping partner if they bid on.

4♠ by West sets a forcing pass anyway IMO, and I don't think West has a hand that warrants moving again over the double... Just give North a good heart suit and you're cooked. Partner would bid the same way holding KJx xxx Qxx AKxx, and even Kxxx xx Qxx AKxx isn't exactly a laydown in 5♠.

In summary, I think there is no blame, you did all you could and got screwed by a horrible overcall by South.

Ok, yes, you're right. You can make 5♠ with careful play. Ruff the 2nd diamond, two rounds of trumps with the AQ in hand, heart to the king, and a low heart back. If south ruffs, he ruffs his partner's trick, otherwise you win the ace, and lead a 3rd heart preparing to ruff the 4th high. BUT

A) Do you think most low-level players are going to find this line?
B) Do you think they should anticipate this during the bidding phase?

Sure you could argue that spades might go 2-2 in which case you draw 2 rounds and it's easy to ruff the 4th heart but then again if spades go 2-2 then 5♦ goes down 1 more trick.

I think the weird 1♦ overcall is what screwed them. Bids like this usually don't work out, but sometimes they do and when they do you have to pay off. I don't consider 5♠ a good call even though on this hand it works out.

[ggwhiz]

Bbradley62, on 2011-June-16, 23:12, said:

Competent defense sets 5♠. Your opponents earned their good score by bidding 5♦. No blame for your side.

Agree completely and the off beat 1♦ overcall sunk you. Better to congratulate your opponents on their brilliance than to admit to a mistake.

The winning margin can often be turning a zero into a 10 or 20% score and fighting it out on the other hands. Bidding 5 spades and going down (likely a few times) would really reward these maniacs so I think you did the right thing.

[mtvesuvius]

VM1973, on 2011-June-18, 07:22, said:

Ok, yes, you're right. You can make 5♠ with careful play. Ruff the 2nd diamond, two rounds of trumps with the AQ in hand, heart to the king, and a low heart back. If south ruffs, he ruffs his partner's trick, otherwise you win the ace, and lead a 3rd heart preparing to ruff the 4th high. BUT

A) Do you think most low-level players are going to find this line?
B) Do you think they should anticipate this during the bidding phase?

Sure you could argue that spades might go 2-2 in which case you draw 2 rounds and it's easy to ruff the 4th heart but then again if spades go 2-2 then 5♦ goes down 1 more trick.

I think the weird 1♦ overcall is what screwed them. Bids like this usually don't work out, but sometimes they do and when they do you have to pay off. I don't consider 5♠ a good call even though on this hand it works out.

You had the line almost right, except that even with 2-2 trumps, it is still right to win the second round of diamonds, and immediately play a heart to the King, and a heart back. If South ruffs, you can win the return and safely draw two rounds of trump, keeping one high spade honor in both hands. Now you ruff the last heart in dummy, and even when North has 3 trump you can still survive, because he has the heart length and will be forced to follow suit when you ruff out the heart.

Here is the hand with 2-2 trumps, and giving South a more normal overcall. I changed the auction slightly as well, but it really isn't relevant, since I don't think you can ever reach 5♠.

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When the ♥3 is led, South once again has no winning option. If they ruff, declarer just draws two rounds of trump like above and ruffs his heart loser. If they discard, declarer can test one round of trump then lead another heart, planning to ruff the 4th one in dummy once again.

The only time this won't work is when South has 4♠, and North has a void, but then you weren't making it anyway.

A) I don't know really. The clues are there, and I think it depends on your classification of low-level players. I know a fair amount of people who are fairly inexperienced, but I think would get this right. I also know plenty of people who have been playing for eons, but wouldn't get this right.

Once you infer that North has 5♥, and realize that you need to arrange to ruff a heart in dummy, I think it's certainly possible to get it right.

B) No. I don't think West could figure out in the auction that 5♠ is likely to make.