[han]

Lefty opens a weak 2S, and partner jumps to 5C.. wow, what's that??

And what's your call with:

AKx
xxxx
xxxxx
K

[luke warm]

hey, it's your partner what does it mean?

if it's a preemptive bid, is he saying he's off 2? 3?... if 2, slam has a play... if 3, i guess slam has a shot but pass is probably right... i'm passing if nv, bidding 6 if vulnerable, on the theory that my cover cards are the same regardless but his bid isn't

[hrothgar]

luke warm, on Sep 17 2004, 09:01 PM, said:

hey, it's your partner what does it mean?

if it's a preemptive bid, is he saying he's off 2? 3?... if 2, slam has a play... if 3, i guess slam has a shot but pass is probably right... i'm passing if nv, bidding 6 if vulnerable, on the theory that my cover cards are the same regardless but his bid isn't

Its not a preemptive bid... at least not with a competent partner.

[paulg]

Clearcut pass ... partner would have doubled if my hand is suitable for slam.

Using my well known mild manners from the BIL, I would say that a bid of six is undisciplined .... a synonym for "absolutely crazy"

Paul

[flytoox]

You have three tricks for him, I think i will raise to 6c. 5C is definitely not weak preempt bid. He thinks he can make it facing a boring dummy. You have more than that, raise to 6.

Hongjun

[whereagles]

This is the type of situation where you have to know pard's style... without knowing who's across table, it's anyone's guess

[jtfanclub]

Hannie, on Sep 17 2004, 12:34 PM, said:

Lefty opens a weak 2S, and partner jumps to 5C.. wow, what's that??

And what's your call with:

AKx
xxxx
xxxxx
K

Partner almost certainly has a spade void. Pass.

I'm expecting something like:

Void
QJT
AQx
AQJxxxx

What are you supposed to bid with that hand? X, and watch your partner leave it in? Ask for aces? 3S is a bad idea, because you need your partner to have the KC and a spade stop for 3NT.

If the partner of this hand has nothing, then 4S is making and it's pre-emptive. If he has a couple of tricks (say, the red suit kings) then it's got a good shot.

But then, I'm not an expert, either.

[luke warm]

whereagles, on Sep 17 2004, 08:57 PM, said:

This is the type of situation where you have to know pard's style... without knowing who's across table, it's anyone's guess

which was, i think, the point i was trying to make... if this isn't a preempt, it's to make.. pard is bidding what he thinks he can make... i figure to have 3 tricks, 6 looks good

[flytoox]

jtfanclub, on Sep 17 2004, 07:06 PM, said:

[QUOTE=Hannie,Sep 17 2004, 12:34 I'm expecting something like:

Void
QJT
AQx
AQJxxxx

I dont tihnk pd has this hand, with this hand, he should bid 3c, you may have h suit, in that case he will be very happy to raise to 4H.

Hongjun

[luke warm]

i agree

Quote

cardsharp:
Clearcut pass ... partner would have doubled if my hand is suitable for slam.

Using my well known mild manners from the BIL, I would say that a bid of six is undisciplined .... a synonym for "absolutely crazy"

few things labeled 'clearcut' are actually clearcut... when decent players disagree on a bid, play, or lead, sometimes things aren't as obvious as one or the other thinks... and i doubt seriously if 'absolutely crazy' is a good designation for any bid other than yours

[paulg]

luke warm, on Sep 17 2004, 08:43 PM, said:

i agree

Quote

cardsharp:
Clearcut pass ... partner would have doubled if my hand is suitable for slam.

Using my well known mild manners from the BIL, I would say that a bid of six is undisciplined .... a synonym for "absolutely crazy"

few things labeled 'clearcut' are actually clearcut... when decent players disagree on a bid, play, or lead, sometimes things aren't as obvious as one or the other thinks... and i doubt seriously if 'absolutely crazy' is a good designation for any bid other than yours

I did add a smiley but I was trying to convey that I feel that bidding in this situation, where we are so completely in the dark, is a guess and not a science.

And, following a preempt, we should be aiming to get a positive score and not trying to get the best possible result.

p

[Flame]

You have to post vulnarability and exact bidding (was the 2sp bidding the dealer ?)

[whereagles]

luke warm, on Sep 17 2004, 08:07 PM, said:

whereagles, on Sep 17 2004, 08:57 PM, said:

This is the type of situation where you have to know pard's style... without knowing who's across table, it's anyone's guess

which was, i think, the point i was trying to make... if this isn't a preempt, it's to make.. pard is bidding what he thinks he can make... i figure to have 3 tricks, 6 looks good

Well, I take it pard knows one shouldn't preempt over an enemy preempt But even then it depends more on pard's style than on anything else. Though opposite a random expert pard I would tend to pass.

On.. and I agree most things people label as "clear-cut" are actually quite far from obvious

[inquiry]

Hannie, on Sep 17 2004, 01:34 PM, said:

Lefty opens a weak 2S, and partner jumps to 5C.. wow, what's that??

And what's your call with:

AKx
xxxx
xxxxx
K

You need to know two things.

1st, what do you play (2♠)-4♦ as. It fhe answer is leaping micheales, that might affect the meaning of the jump to 5♦. But ohter than that, maybe before asking what the bid means, it might be nice to know the type of game and the vulnerabilty. At matchpoints a 5♣ bid bypassing the chance to discover if you can play the much higher scoring 3NT (yes, 5♣ making is better than 3NT down one) is a rare situation. So that implication will have significance on you choice of bids. And vulnerabiltiy is obviosly important.

If we are vul and they are not, I would bid 6clubs, at imps or matchpoints.

If they are vul and we are not, I would pass at imps. The reason is that I expect my partner not to bid 5C vul versus non-vul without a hand he expects to take 10 tricks with. At the other vulnerability, I expect he will be a little more loose with his choice of bids. So the odds of catching partner with the "right hand" is greatly reduced when not vul.

If both were vul, I guess I would still bid 6C. If both non-vul, I guess I would pass at imps, but bid 6C at matchponts. This is because at mp, I would worry that we missed the boat for 3NT.

Below is some hands pulled from the BBO play records where the bidding went weak 2-5 of a minor. This might be a good exercise to check with your partners. Ask them which of the following hands (if any) they would jump to 5 of a minor on over a weak two.

Scoring: IMP

West North East South

- Pass 2♥ 5♣

Partner is a pass hand, so unlikely you will miss too much. You may have a better diamond fit. If your four club bid promise clubs, that would be just about right here. If four clubs promises clubs and hearts, then your only real choice is 5♣. 3♣ is underbid, 4♣ might get your parnter bidding to many hearts in competitioni.

---

Scoring: IMP

West North East South

- Pass 2♥ 5♣

Partner is a pass hand, so unlikely you will miss too much. You may have a better diamond fit. If your four club bid promise clubs, that would be just about right here. If four clubs promises clubs and hearts, then your only real choice is 5♣. 3♣ is underbid, 4♣ might get your parnter bidding to many hearts in competitioni.

---

Scoring: IMP

West North East South

- Pass 2♥ 5♣

Partner is a pass hand, so unlikely you will miss too much. You may have a better diamond fit. If your four club bid promise clubs, that would be just about right here. If four clubs promises clubs and hearts, then your only real choice is 5♣. 3♣ is underbid, 4♣ might get your parnter bidding to many hearts in competitioni.

---

Scoring: IMP

West North East South

- Pass 2♥ 5♣

Partner is a pass hand, so unlikely you will miss too much. You may have a better diamond fit. If your four club bid promise clubs, that would be just about right here. If four clubs promises clubs and hearts, then your only real choice is 5♣. 3♣ is underbid, 4♣ might get your parnter bidding to many hearts in competitioni.

---

Scoring: IMP

West North East South

- Pass 2♥ 5♣

Partner is a pass hand, so unlikely you will miss too much. You may have a better diamond fit. If your four club bid promise clubs, that would be just about right here. If four clubs promises clubs and hearts, then your only real choice is 5♣. 3♣ is underbid, 4♣ might get your parnter bidding to many hearts in competitioni.

---

Scoring: IMP

West North East South

- Pass 2♥ 5♣

Partner is a pass hand, so unlikely you will miss too much. You may have a better diamond fit. If your four club bid promise clubs, that would be just about right here. If four clubs promises clubs and hearts, then your only real choice is 5♣. 3♣ is underbid, 4♣ might get your parnter bidding to many hearts in competitioni.

---

Scoring: IMP

West North East South

- Pass 2♥ 5♣

Partner is a pass hand, so unlikely you will miss too much. You may have a better diamond fit. If your four club bid promise clubs, that would be just about right here. If four clubs promises clubs and hearts, then your only real choice is 5♣. 3♣ is underbid, 4♣ might get your parnter bidding to many hearts in competitioni.

---

Scoring: IMP

West North East South

- Pass 2♥ 5♣

Partner is a pass hand, so unlikely you will miss too much. You may have a better diamond fit. If your four club bid promise clubs, that would be just about right here. If four clubs promises clubs and hearts, then your only real choice is 5♣. 3♣ is underbid, 4♣ might get your parnter bidding to many hearts in competitioni.

---

Scoring: IMP

West North East South

- Pass 2♥ 5♣

Partner is a pass hand, so unlikely you will miss too much. You may have a better diamond fit. If your four club bid promise clubs, that would be just about right here. If four clubs promises clubs and hearts, then your only real choice is 5♣. 3♣ is underbid, 4♣ might get your parnter bidding to many hearts in competitioni.

---

Scoring: IMP

West North East South

- Pass 2♥ 5♣

Partner is a pass hand, so unlikely you will miss too much. You may have a better diamond fit. If your four club bid promise clubs, that would be just about right here. If four clubs promises clubs and hearts, then your only real choice is 5♣. 3♣ is underbid, 4♣ might get your parnter bidding to many hearts in competitioni.

---

Scoring: IMP

West North East South

- Pass 2♥ 5♣

Partner is a pass hand, so unlikely you will miss too much. You may have a better diamond fit. If your four club bid promise clubs, that would be just about right here. If four clubs promises clubs and hearts, then your only real choice is 5♣. 3♣ is underbid, 4♣ might get your parnter bidding to many hearts in competitioni.

---

 

Scoring: IMP

West North East South

- Pass 2♥ 5♣

Partner is a pass hand, so unlikely you will miss too much. You may have a better diamond fit. If your four club bid promise clubs, that would be just about right here. If four clubs promises clubs and hearts, then your only real choice is 5♣. 3♣ is underbid, 4♣ might get your parnter bidding to many hearts in competitioni.

---

Scoring: IMP

West North East South

- Pass 2♥ 5♣

Partner is a pass hand, so unlikely you will miss too much. You may have a better diamond fit. If your four club bid promise clubs, that would be just about right here. If four clubs promises clubs and hearts, then your only real choice is 5♣. 3♣ is underbid, 4♣ might get your parnter bidding to many hearts in competitioni.

---

Scoring: IMP

West North East South

- Pass 2♥ 5♣

Partner is a pass hand, so unlikely you will miss too much. You may have a better diamond fit. If your four club bid promise clubs, that would be just about right here. If four clubs promises clubs and hearts, then your only real choice is 5♣. 3♣ is underbid, 4♣ might get your parnter bidding to many hearts in competitioni.

---

[paulhar]

5C is not a preempt. 4C is a monster and 5C is even better. I bid 6C.

[han]

Thanks Ben, this is really useful. I'll tell me partner to take a look at this too.

[Fluffy]

5♣ doesn´t have to be strong, and we have probabvly themost useless cards of the deck, so pass and pray to make.

[paulhar]

Fluffy, on Sep 17 2004, 09:48 PM, said:

5♣ doesn´t have to be strong, and we have probabvly themost useless cards of the deck, so pass and pray to make.

Sorry, but I have to play devil's advocate again. The CK is certainly useful, and unless the opening leader has a couple of aces or an AK or KQJ of a red suit, the lead will probably be a spade, and your AK will provide two immediate pitches. They won't help solidify a suit, but when your partner has a bushel of clubs, they won't have that many cards outside clubs to have to deal with.

[Fluffy]

so you bid 6 and you expect opponents to lead ♠, yeah they aren´t probably warned about that suit at all.

[skorchev]

We NV, they V - PASS, else - 6♣.


Stefan