[SimonFa]

Match points, white Vs red. I picked up:

♠KQx
♥Txxx
♦QJx
♣AKQ

Partner opened 1NT, 15-17. We play 1NT mandatory even with 5 card majors but and only one doubleton, and we don't play Puppet or Gerber.

I bid 4NT (quantitative) and partner raised to 6NT with 16 points. 12 tricks came home when ♥QJ dropped on partners, ♥AK. It was early on and Bridgemate gave us something like 80% as someone had made 13 tricks in 6NT and there were a some 4♥+2 contracts and a 6♥, but we were feeling quite pleased with ourselves and confident of a reasonable score.

At the end of the evening I was surprised to find we only scored 45% as 6H+1 had been made at quite a few tables. It should be noted that this is a UK club and a large proportion of the members play Acol, weak NT.


My questions are:

1. Is 4NT a reasonable bid? Partner, a bit more experienced than me, suggested I might even have bid 6NT.

2. Should I have bid Stayman? Bearing in mind I had figured partner to have some serious ♥ honours for his 1NT? As it happened he had ♥AKxx.

Thanks in advance,

Simon

[quiddity]

1. yes it's reasonable
2. no I would not use Stayman

[nigel_k]

Your actions look fine to me. You haven't given us partner's hand but I would expect 6NT to usually make the same number of tricks as 6♥.

[aguahombre]

Disagree with the previous two. If 1NT can have a 5cM, then not bidding stayman is just blasting. Further, when you know what the field plays, and that they will find a heart fit, why not try to acquire the same information? I don't think going against the crowd in the early part of an event is a good plan.

If 4NT after Stayman is no longer quantitative, and/or if you cannot establish hearts as trump and still conduct a reasonable probe for slam, then change your agreements.

[Siegmund]

Even if partner has a 5CM you aren't going to be taking any ruffs in the short hand - partner will be 5332.

Put me down for a tossup between 4N and 6N, and would not have considered Stayman even if the honors had been a bit more lopsided.

[aguahombre]

.

---

This, or similar setup is not really far fetched. This is a B/I forum. Even a beginner might accidentally make 6H.

But, advanced/experts would have no play in 6NT. Even with a 4-4 fit ---forget the possibility of 5 hearts with the opener --- the exact situation (strip and endplay) might work out. IMO, Stayman with a major should be encouraged in B/I. They will develop enough bad habits without dogma of rejecting Stayman with 4x3 hands.

[rogerclee]

I don't get stayman, we only want to play hearts if partner has 5 and stayman will not give us this information.

[nigel_k]

aguahombre, on 2011-May-11, 21:29, said:

IMO, Stayman with a major should be encouraged in B/I. They will develop enough bad habits without dogma of rejecting Stayman with 4x3 hands.

I can't prove it without a simulation but I expect there will be many more hands where hearts and notrump make the same number of tricks. This is not an example of the "dogma of rejecting Stayman with 4x3 hands" because:

1) At the six level there is less scope for making an extra trick in the suit contract. Certainly we don't have to worry about opponents setting up and running a long suit.

2) There is an obvious risk at the six level when our trumps are 10xxx that we could have two heart losers and 12 tricks elsewhere.

3) This is not a typical 4333 because you have the queen of every side suit which reduces the likelihood that there is a gain from ruffing in partner's doubleton.

The nature of the question shows that the OP is not a beginner and probably not intermediate either. I don't see anything wrong in discussing these issues.

[Cyberyeti]

aguahombre, on 2011-May-11, 21:29, said:

.

---

This, or similar setup is not really far fetched. This is a B/I forum. Even a beginner might accidentally make 6H.

But, advanced/experts would have no play in 6NT. Even with a 4-4 fit ---forget the possibility of 5 hearts with the opener --- the exact situation (strip and endplay) might work out. IMO, Stayman with a major should be encouraged in B/I. They will develop enough bad habits without dogma of rejecting Stayman with 4x3 hands.

So what's the problem, the auction goes 1N-4N-6♥.

[SimonFa]

Thanks to everyone for their comments, very useful.

@Nigel, thanks for your vote of confidence but I've only been playing 8 months and if you'd seen me play last night you'd put me down as a novice

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

#1 4NT is ok, you have 17HCP, if you downgraded this to 16 due 4333 shape and the lack of
Aces, the bid is ok.
#2 This is a matter of philosophy, I would have done this, ..., sure p will have heart honors,
afterall you have +32 between you, so only 8HCP are at best missing, but he may have a
4432 shape.
Playing NT instead of the major is only good, if you hit a mirror shape, there are conventions
to detect mirror shapes, if you are really concerned about this.
But this is a matter of philosophy, if you decide to always by bypass Stayman with 4333 you will
be doing fine, I will always bid Stayman, and I dont regret this.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[quiddity]

P_Marlowe, on 2011-May-13, 07:37, said:

Playing NT instead of the major is only good, if you hit a mirror shape,

Look at aguahombre's example. I think it's very telling that he hand-wrote the layout to support his point, gave partner 5 trumps to the AK and hand-picked his side honors, and still turned up with a pair of NS hands which make the same number of tricks in NT and hearts at least 75% of the time.

[cherdano]

aguahombre, on 2011-May-11, 21:29, said:

IMO, Stayman with a major should be encouraged in B/I. They will develop enough bad habits without dogma of rejecting Stayman with 4x3 hands.

I agree, B/I players should always bid Stayman with 4x3 and a terrible four-card suit. That lets the experts keep some edge by correctly raising to 3NT directly without giving away any information.

[ahydra]

I'd have bid 6NT straight off, but would not have gone after the hearts. What was the layout where hearts makes 13 tricks?

ahydra