[Antrax]

Matchpoints event.

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Sitting east. Do I have an action to take after the 1NT overcall? (shows 15-18)
Do I double for penalty?

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Now what?
At the table I doubled for takeout, 1♠ on my left. Partner with a 10-count and 4-2-4-3 (4 small diamonds) bid 2♦ which was then passed out, down 1 on a singleton spade lead - losing three diamond tricks, a spade ruff and the missing two aces. Bad luck, bad 2♦ call or ill-advised TO double?

[JLOGIC]

Hand 1: Passing 1N is normal/fine. Now you should pass again. It is never a good idea to double simply because you have a lot of points. Look at it this way, LHO knows exactly how many points his side has. His partner showed 15-18, and he knows that he doesn't have any. Still, he forced to game. He obviously has a lot of distribution. We should expect him to make, everything is splitting well. We also have zero defensive tricks.

You should be doubling people on an auction like this only because you have a surprise, something they don't know you have (for instance, 4 or 5 good trumps...they know they are off those trumps but wouldn't know they're splitting badly; that is a surprise).

If they have bid irrationally high for no reason, you don't have to double them to collect a good score, since others will not do that.

[JLOGIC]

On the 2nd hand, doubling is absolutely fine since you're a passed hand. That one is your partner's fault for bidding 2D on a 4 card suit. He should double 1S for penalty to show his spade suit, then possibly compete to 2D over whatever they bid. That way, your side can find 2S.

[Antrax]

Thanks JLOGIC. As for the second, if I understand our current methods, a double by partner in that situation would ask me to choose between the two remaining suits. What's the case for making it penalty?

[Fluffy]

probably Justin will elaborate better, but double penalty after 1x-X-1y is the most common treatment (although take out is also playable).

There are various reasons, one of them is the hand you just played, the fact that an opponent has 4 cards shouldn't preclude you from playing in that suit, often double dummy.

The other reason is that if you don't play penalty doubles opponents can consistently psyche 3 card suits bids at the 1 level stealing your fit.

The third one is that take out double is not very useful now, there are only 2 suits and partner already told you he has 3+ cards in each. If you want to compete just bid one of them, if you want more cuebid the original suit (clubs), bidding 2♠ on this sequence is natural.

As a final note with 4-4 in the remainder suits and competitive strenght (otherwise you can cuebid) you should start bidding your highest suit first (2♥ on this case). So that when the auction comes back with for example 3♣, you can compete with 3♦ and let partner pick the red suit where he has 4 cards at the same level.

[bluecalm]

1)You could double 1NT. The hand is borderline and depends on soundness of your openers imo. I prefer doubling playing standardish agreements. Don't double 4♥ though for reasons already explained

2).You partner probably doesn't have much matchpoint survival instinct. Even if he couldnt' double 1♠ for penalty he should've bid 1NT. In NT tricks are for 40-30-30 while in diamonds for 20-20-20 and it's not even sure thing if you have more diamonds than them. Many hands with 5 weakish diamonds should strive to bid 1NT. Having four of them is not an option.

[whereagles]

The first one it depends a bit on who opps are. If they're solid, perhaps it's better to be quiet. If they have a tendency to overbid, I would certainly dbl them. In any case you rate to have little to lose and a lot to gain by doubling, because most other tables probably won't be bidding this game. If it makes, it's a near-bottom anyway, so...

The second dbl is normal. Pard had a lot of options over his RHO 1♠ and decided for the worst one lol.

[nigel_k]

Antrax, on 2011-May-04, 01:15, said:

Thanks JLOGIC. As for the second, if I understand our current methods, a double by partner in that situation would ask me to choose between the two remaining suits. What's the case for making it penalty?

I would suggest a general rule that your side can only double one suit for takeout. Subsequent doubles of another suit are penalty. If partner has the red suits in your auction he can either just bid hearts or cue bid 2♣.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

#1 yes - with 10HCP you should do something, and the usual action is to start with
a penalty X.
Some peoble will start making the X with 9HCP, maybe even with 8HCP - depends how
sound you are opening, but 10HCP is definitive a X (..., even if you are facing a
3rd seat opener, i.e. when you are a passed hand).

#2 X is fine - sry misread the auction in my original reply.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[han]

nigel_k, on 2011-May-04, 19:04, said:

I would suggest a general rule that your side can only double one suit for takeout. Subsequent doubles of another suit are penalty. If partner has the red suits in your auction he can either just bid hearts or cue bid 2♣.

Not a good rule, (1S) - Dbl - (2C) - p - (p) - Dbl should not be penalty.

[cherdano]

nigel_k, on 2011-May-04, 19:04, said:

I would suggest a general rule that your side can only double one suit for takeout. Subsequent doubles of another suit are penalty. If partner has the red suits in your auction he can either just bid hearts or cue bid 2♣.

han, on 2011-May-09, 05:31, said:

Not a good rule, (1S) - Dbl - (2C) - p - (p) - Dbl should not be penalty.

This being the B/I forum, maybe it's worth adding the correct rule as well: If partner has made a takeout double implying length in suit x, and we double an opponent who bid x, then it's penalty.

[Phil]

JLOGIC, on 2011-May-04, 01:05, said:

Hand 1: Passing 1N is normal/fine. Now you should pass again. It is never a good idea to double simply because you have a lot of points. Look at it this way, LHO knows exactly how many points his side has. His partner showed 15-18, and he knows that he doesn't have any. Still, he forced to game. He obviously has a lot of distribution. We should expect him to make, everything is splitting well. We also have zero defensive tricks.

Excellent advice. I would add that if by some chance, you are beating four hearts, presumably the opponents have overbid and you are getting a good board anyway. If the opponents have overbid to game, and get lucky and make it, you've turned a 25% board into a zero (which roughly translates into 1% of your total score over a session). But what will frequently happen is that this is the normal contract and you will score within 40 and 60%, depending on the field, and how well you defend.

These little things mean a lot when you add up your score at the end of the evening and wonder how you can make your 56% into 61%.

[Antrax]

You're assuming my current results are 56% and not 40% , but I also appreciated the advice - never occurred to me. As is implied by the question, that's exactly what happened (turning 25% to 0%). It was a magical 21 HCP game where all the finesses were right, everything broke and dummy had a spade doubleton to keep our top four spade tricks down to 2 to go with our club ace and nothing more. I was wondering how I could know to avoid doubling for penalty when I know they don't have the HCP for game and no reason to assume any special shape - now I know doubling just stands to lose a lot or gain a little.

[ahydra]

Agree with X then pass on the first hand - fairly important to show partner where the missing points are if he has a good hand himself.

Your takeout X on the 2nd hand is perhaps a little light when vul and balanced, but I'd expect like 80%+ of players to X, so no problem there. The problem is more likely that partner should have bid 1NT or doubled instead of bidding 2D. I play double here as "value-showing" (sort of halfway between takeout and penalty) which shows pretty much what he's got, but 1NT also wouldn't be a bad idea if he had a stop in spades. On hands like this you'll often find 1NT shuts opps out better than X, eg here opps would almost certainly run to 2C.

ahydra

[Gerben42]

If you play Dbl for T/O after 1♣ Dbl 1♠ (not standard but very playable), then your partner should bid 1NT. You have given up the possibility of a penalty with this treatment, but realistically, 1♠ wasn't going to be the final contract. I guess is would be 1NT by us or them. I prefer us