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Responding after a reverse Simple rebid of responders suit

#1 User is offline   thebiker 

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Posted 2011-April-30, 06:35

Say the bidding goes
1C P 1H P
2D P ? What does a 2H Bid by responder show?
In most of the sources I have seen, I'm told it is natural and F1 - a fairly vague answer

So presumably this means it shows at least 5 hearts, and what sort of values? What would be the minimum point count and the maximum point count? Would anyone care to describe how they play this bid and give some examples of suitable hands?

Lets assume that one also has a negative bid available (2NT Ingberman, or 2S if playing Blackout)

Assume that one is playing a natural system, and that opener has now shown longer clubs (5+) than diamonds (4+) and extra values ie 16+

Thanks in advance for your answers

Brian Keable
alias "thebiker"
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#2 User is offline   han 

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Posted 2011-April-30, 08:17

5+ hearts, 0-27 HCP.

Nothing wrong with having a wide range for the cheapest call.
Please note: I am interested in boring, bog standard, 2/1.

- hrothgar
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#3 User is offline   kenberg 

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Posted 2011-April-30, 08:51

One question to settle: Suppose that you (responder) have a fit for one of opener's two suits, decent values and five cards in your major. Do you rebid the major or show the fit? I brought this up on an earlier thread and convinced myself and perhaps others that it is best to show the established fit and the game force with partner, even in a minor. Nothing is stopping him for bidding his three car support for your major next, if he has it. The point is that usually, with nine or more cards in his own suits, he won't have support for your suit. If you first rebid your own major, showing neither the fit in his suit nor your game forcing values, it can get dicey after he cannot support your major.

Whether you agree with this suggestion or not, I think that resolving the issue of whether to show fit or rebid the five card major is important. Opener needs to know whether you could have five in your suit when you support one of his suits.
Ken
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#4 User is offline   han 

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Posted 2011-April-30, 09:51

You definitely can have 5 in your suit when you raise one of opener's suit. In the auction 1m - 1S - 2H - 3H you even promise 5 but I guess you knew that.
Please note: I am interested in boring, bog standard, 2/1.

- hrothgar
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#5 User is offline   gnasher 

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Posted 2011-April-30, 11:59

With a hand that's going to drive game, I think you should rebid a good five-card heart suit, but tend to conceal a poor suit. If partner has 3-card support, the 5-3 fit will come to light anyway, so you can make the most descriptive bid.

With normal responding values but not enough to insist on game, I think you should always rebid a five-card suit. If you have a heart fit, you probably belong in game, and a non-forcing preference might lose the fit.

With sub-minimum responding values but a fit for one of partner's minors, I might conceal a poor five-card suit in order to make a non-forcing bid in the minor. If we're going to play in a partscore, partner's minor will be as good as anywhere; if partner's going to insist on game, a 5-3 fit won't be lost, but in the meantime I've avoided overstating the suit.
... that would still not be conclusive proof, before someone wants to explain that to me as well as if I was a 5 year-old. - gwnn
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#6 User is offline   mike777 

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Posted 2011-April-30, 12:33

View Postthebiker, on 2011-April-30, 06:35, said:

Say the bidding goes
1C P 1H P
2D P ? What does a 2H Bid by responder show?
In most of the sources I have seen, I'm told it is natural and F1 - a fairly vague answer

So presumably this means it shows at least 5 hearts, and what sort of values? What would be the minimum point count and the maximum point count? Would anyone care to describe how they play this bid and give some examples of suitable hands?

Lets assume that one also has a negative bid available (2NT Ingberman, or 2S if playing Blackout)

Assume that one is playing a natural system, and that opener has now shown longer clubs (5+) than diamonds (4+) and extra values ie 16+

Thanks in advance for your answers

Brian Keable
alias "thebiker"



fwiw in "structured reverses" by Root-Pavlicek 2h shows 5+ h and a max of 9hcp. It is F1 but does not promise a rebid and is nongame forcing.

2s would be gf sort of like 4sf.

2nt would be weakish without 5h.


3c and 3d would be natural and gf.
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#7 User is offline   bluecalm 

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Posted 2011-April-30, 14:01

If you play "normal" reverses (which are 15+hcp) then of course it should not be forcing according to the basic bidding principles.
If however you play American style of "strong reverses" see this post:
http://www.bridgebas...everse-bidding/

Anyway you can't expect any kind of accuracy in those sequences so just settle for some simple solution and hope it won't come up too often. If you have more time at your hands to develop bidding system, don't play standard (at least you really have tons of time, for example if you are sentenced to 5 years in prison, then untangling those sequences in standard can be worthwhile task) :)
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#8 User is offline   aguahombre 

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Posted 2011-April-30, 14:36

Wish you had not used "normal", above, Mr. Calm. It begs for contentious replies. It is true, however, that if a reverse can be made with less than a great unbalanced 16, the definition of 2H should be revised to NF.
"Bidding Spades to show spades can work well." (Kenberg)
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#9 User is offline   Quantumcat 

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Posted 2011-May-01, 18:15

This all gets sorted out when you play transfers after a reverse. You can then set one of the reverser's suits, and for example make a splinter or whatever. Or you can transfer to a suit then bid notrumps, offering a choice of contracts. You can show hands that are slam-interest as well as just a normal response, then partner can judge accurately whether the values are there for slam or not. And of course with a very bad hand responder can make a transfer then pass. If opener has such a good reverse that he still wants to play in game opposite a complete minimum, he doesn't accept the transfer.
Every hand gets sorted out and most of the time both partners know what the values are (partscore/game/slam) and all the time at least one of them does, and has to ability to force their way there without having to jump about and waste space.
I Transfers
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#10 User is offline   thebiker 

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Posted 2011-May-03, 02:47

View PostQuantumcat, on 2011-May-01, 18:15, said:

This all gets sorted out when you play transfers after a reverse. You can then set one of the reverser's suits, and for example make a splinter or whatever. Or you can transfer to a suit then bid notrumps, offering a choice of contracts. You can show hands that are slam-interest as well as just a normal response, then partner can judge accurately whether the values are there for slam or not. And of course with a very bad hand responder can make a transfer then pass. If opener has such a good reverse that he still wants to play in game opposite a complete minimum, he doesn't accept the transfer.
Every hand gets sorted out and most of the time both partners know what the values are (partscore/game/slam) and all the time at least one of them does, and has to ability to force their way there without having to jump about and waste space.


Thats sounds a very interesting idea
Perhaps you could give some examples of sequences that you use over reverses such as 1C 1H 2D, 1C 1S 2D, 1C 1S 2H.

Thanls
Brian Keable
alias "thebiker"
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#11 User is offline   TWO4BRIDGE 

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Posted 2011-May-03, 09:13

View PostQuantumcat, on 2011-May-01, 18:15, said:

This all gets sorted out when you play transfers after a reverse. You can then set one of the reverser's suits, and for example make a splinter or whatever. Or you can transfer to a suit then bid notrumps, offering a choice of contracts. You can show hands that are slam-interest as well as just a normal response, then partner can judge accurately whether the values are there for slam or not. And of course with a very bad hand responder can make a transfer then pass. If opener has such a good reverse that he still wants to play in game opposite a complete minimum, he doesn't accept the transfer.
Every hand gets sorted out and most of the time both partners know what the values are (partscore/game/slam) and all the time at least one of them does, and has to ability to force their way there without having to jump about and waste space.

Zelandakh also espouses Transfers-Over-Reverse :

http://www.bridgebas...__gopid__541655
Don Stenmark
TWOferBRIDGE
"imo by far in bridge the least understood concept is how to bid over a jump-shift
( 1M-1NT!-3m-?? )." ....Justin Lall

" Did someone mention relays? " .... Zelandakh

K-Rex to Mikeh : " Sometimes you drive me nuts " .
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#12 User is offline   Quantumcat 

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Posted 2011-May-03, 17:28

View Postthebiker, on 2011-May-03, 02:47, said:

Thats sounds a very interesting idea
Perhaps you could give some examples of sequences that you use over reverses such as 1C 1H 2D, 1C 1S 2D, 1C 1S 2H.


The basic idea:
Your transfer-rebid will either set trumps or show extra shape. Your next bid expresses values, or gives an idea on where you'd like to play. The next bid might be continuing to show shape, like a 4th-suit-forcing auction where you bid 4th suit then rebid it, to show you had a natural bid in that suit.

1 - 1
2 - 3
3 - 3NT
Responder showed an extra heart but is quite happy to play in 3NT even with a heart fit.

1 - 1
2 - 2
2NT - 3/3/3
Responder has an extra heart/bit of a diamond fit/bit of a club fit, a balanced hand, and isn't too sure about 3NT, but opener can still play there if he wants to (responder made sure opener was declarer). If opener doesn't have 5/4 in his suits, 1 in responder's and a good 3-card stopper in the 4th suit, responder wants him to bid something other than 3NT.

1 - 1
2 - 3
3 - 4
4NT - 5
6
Responder set diamonds and then splintered to show slam interest, and that was enough for opener to ask for keycards.

1 - 1
2 - 3
3 - 4NT
5 - 6
Responder was originally intending to show 6/4 in spades and diamonds (by bidding 3 after opener's 3*), but opener surprised him by showing 3-card spade support, by not accepting the transfer. Opener must have a singleton diamond and that was enough for responder to ask for keycards.
*A transfer to spades then 3 would be setting spades as trumps and cueing

1 - 1
2 - 2
3 - 4
Responder had QJxxxx xxxx xx x and was intending to sign-off in 2. Opener showed a 19 or 20-count with 3 spades and a singleton heart, so that sounded to responder like enough for game.
I Transfers
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#13 User is offline   Lurpoa 

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Posted 2011-May-04, 07:32

View Postthebiker, on 2011-April-30, 06:35, said:

Say the bidding goes
1C P 1H P
2D P ? What does a 2H Bid by responder show?
In most of the sources I have seen, I'm told it is natural and F1 - a fairly vague answer

So presumably this means it shows at least 5 hearts, and what sort of values? What would be the minimum point count and the maximum point count? Would anyone care to describe how they play this bid and give some examples of suitable hands?

Lets assume that one also has a negative bid available (2NT Ingberman, or 2S if playing Blackout)

Assume that one is playing a natural system, and that opener has now shown longer clubs (5+) than diamonds (4+) and extra values ie 16+

Thanks in advance for your answers

Brian Keable
alias "thebiker"



Yes, this is one of the things on which the partnership should make agreements.
How forcing is a reverse by opener (after a 1level response) ? That is the question !

Playing it naturally, that reverse can be done with
(1) as much as 20H: so it is forcing for at least one rond. Responder must make a bid.
(2) as less as 17H (needs to be fixed by the partnership). So responder has to bid his full hand. With a weak hand, he supports one of opener's colors at the lowest possible level, repeats his own 6card at the lowest level, or bids 2NT.

With a gamegoing hand (without slam ambitions) he should bid game or 4th suit.
4th suit can also bid with slam ambitions as a start to find out more information from opener.
Jumps to 4 in one of opnener's colors should be treated as slam-ambition hands, and open a control bidding sequence.

Above is how I see it, when you play it naturally.
However, it is true that other agreement are possible. In BWS2001Defaults:

"opener's reverse after a one-level suit response is forcing AND promises a rebid below game"

With that agreement, responder can indeed, simply rebid his shape, and bid his full strength on the next round.

Bob Herreman
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#14 User is offline   TWO4BRIDGE 

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Posted 2011-May-04, 10:01

In your Transfer Methods, what are the "weakness" bids for sign-offs ?

For example:
1 - 1
2 - ?? is 2 a "weakness" bid or a Transfer to ?

Likewise for:
1 - 1
2 - 2 = ??

Edit: In other words, can you get out at 2-of-Responder's Major ??
Don Stenmark
TWOferBRIDGE
"imo by far in bridge the least understood concept is how to bid over a jump-shift
( 1M-1NT!-3m-?? )." ....Justin Lall

" Did someone mention relays? " .... Zelandakh

K-Rex to Mikeh : " Sometimes you drive me nuts " .
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#15 User is offline   Quantumcat 

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Posted 2011-May-04, 21:25

View PostTWO4BRIDGE, on 2011-May-04, 10:01, said:

In your Transfer Methods, what are the "weakness" bids for sign-offs ?

For example:
1 - 1
2 - ?? is 2 a "weakness" bid or a Transfer to ?

Likewise for:
1 - 1
2 - 2 = ??

Edit: In other words, can you get out at 2-of-Responder's Major ??


Occasionally you have to get out at the 3-level. But a reverse promises the strength to make at least a 3-level contract opposite a normal minimum response so you are safe. If you have less than a minimum response, you probably have a good 6 card suit to make up for it (e.g. QJ9865 and nothing else).

1 - 1
2 - 3
3 - pass.

If you have the agreement that you can respond on fewer than 6 HCP, it's good to have arrangements to be able to get out below game on some hands. Transfer rebids after a reverse are one such arrangement.
I Transfers
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#16 User is offline   TWO4BRIDGE 

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Posted 2011-May-05, 10:18

View PostQuantumcat, on 2011-May-04, 21:25, said:

Occasionally you have to get out at the 3-level. But a reverse promises the strength to make at least a 3-level contract opposite a normal minimum response so you are safe. If you have less than a minimum response, you probably have a good 6 card suit to make up for it (e.g. QJ9865 and nothing else).

1 - 1
2 - 3
3 - pass.

If you have the agreement that you can respond on fewer than 6 HCP, it's good to have arrangements to be able to get out below game on some hands. Transfer rebids after a reverse are one such arrangement.


Getting out at the 3-level is in the same predicament as Lebensohl over Revereses ( Leb3 ) .
That said, I'm still interested the transfer feature but I have no real experience with it.... yet.

I did notice in Zel's Transfer method ( see link in post # 11 ) that you can get out in 2-of-the-Major, but at the expense of "right-siding" NT ( Responder can't transfer to 2NT if 2S is a sign-off ) .
Don Stenmark
TWOferBRIDGE
"imo by far in bridge the least understood concept is how to bid over a jump-shift
( 1M-1NT!-3m-?? )." ....Justin Lall

" Did someone mention relays? " .... Zelandakh

K-Rex to Mikeh : " Sometimes you drive me nuts " .
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