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balancing against a weak NT

#21 User is offline   MrAce 

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Posted 2011-April-15, 18:11

View PostJLOGIC, on 2011-April-15, 15:06, said:



No offense but it seems like you don't have much experience with weak NT if you really think having a good lead or getting to 13 opp 13 games is our primary concern.


I probably played weak nt and played vs weak NT, long before you were born for a long time. And experienced enough not to put such restrictions to both pds where they can have 24-27 hcp combined. Did you know that you would probably have decent chances with only 23-24 hcps when knowing which defender has what and that they are disabled to get to each others's hand and play the suits efficiently for their benefit in defense ? Speaking of experience, an advice from an inexperienced player to you, if they open weak NT and your side decides to play game, try to play 3NT as much as possible even with 8 card majors :)

You tried to make a similarity with preempts but sticking your nose into auction at 3-4 level with balanced hands is one thing, 2 level is another. And everyone is talking as if it is only 13 vs 13 balanced hands that puts us in jeopardy. Anytime we are 23+ hcp combined we are in borderline game zone, given the facts i stated above.

And i still insist it is strange to think that 15+ hcp DBL is a cure for all this, because you are assuming that the expected average HCP from pd will remain the same when we raise our DBL requirement from 13 to 15. Which is not the case.

Expected HCP from pd will be reduced 1/2 trick for each 1 hcp u raise the minimum DBL requirement. So if we take NT opener as 13 hcp on average 15+13=28 40-28 =12 12/2=6 15+6=21 hcp While a 13 hcp DBL brings us average of 20 hcp. I am telling you, this 1 hcp extra for your side in long run is NOT a cure for the disadvantages you and others stated. I mean you guys are talking as if there is a significant/huge difference, but thats FAR from the truth. So basically just to be able to have 1 HCP extra in long run, you are telling 1 pd to pass with all balanced hands less than 15 and to pass all balanced hands less than 14 to the other. And i am not even mentioning the fact that each time 2nd seat passes over a weak NT, responder has various options to screw our side, especially when he is protected by the colors.


Of course when i DBL 1 nt i am hoping to defend 1 NT, but telling me that they will bid and find a safe heaven to land is not fair while telling me we would be doomed when it is my pd who has a poor hand. And you are not offering more than 1 jack extra as a solution to this in long run.

So let it be, you DBL with 15+ and keep an extra Jack in your pocket for your side, while i go thru same risks u do with 1 jack less but make sure noone plays 1NT uncontested when i am cold for game.
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#22 User is offline   MrAce 

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Posted 2011-April-15, 19:42

I sincerely appologize to all of you that i just recognized that scoring is MP after reading Nigel's post. This changes a lot since missing a borderline games is not big of a deal at all and landing in an awfull partscore even without being DBLED can cost a lot.
"Genius has its own limitations, however stupidity has no such boundaries!"
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"Well to be perfectly honest, in my humble opinion, of course without offending anyone who thinks differently from my point of view, but also by looking into this matter in a different perspective and without being condemning of one's view's and by trying to make it objectified, and by considering each and every one's valid opinion, I honestly believe that I completely forgot what I was going to say."





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#23 User is offline   the hog 

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Posted 2011-April-16, 19:05

South's double is pretty poor in my opinion. I would require more than this. I would certainly pass now.
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#24 User is offline   FrancesHinden 

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Posted 2011-April-17, 15:10

JLOGIC has already said most of it. I agree with everything he wrote (ha! I don't always say that!). The word 'unplayable' usually gets rude replies, so let me just say I don't see how you can possibly have a sensible sequence if you double on, say, all 12/13+ HCP hands as you seem to be suggesting. You will either get too high, too often or will miss a lot of games.

To me the real issue with doubling very light in the passout seat is particularly the one about the wide range. I play something which I am sure is horribly unsound theoretically: a passed hand double of a weak 1NT in fourth seat just shows a maximum pass, usually fairly balanced (good 9 - bad 11). This does pick up a surprising number of penalties, although obviously we are a bit more cautious vul at imps and less so love all at matchpoints. So it's not so much the absolute point count you want to double in fourth seat, it's the possible range. With this method I know when to run.

Obviously I could change to playing a double in fourth seat as some other well-defined range, but then I'd be stuck on the stronger hands.
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#25 User is offline   quiddity 

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Posted 2011-April-17, 16:46

Ahh! Thanks Frances. I remember your comment on another similar thread that you felt you couldn't allow them to play 1NT white with 11-12 points. I was wondering why this hand was different, now I realize the balancer was a passed hand in the other thread.
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#26 User is offline   lowerline 

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Posted 2011-April-18, 03:18

This is an interesting discussion. There are clearly two sides here. It does seem however that neither side really differentiates between 2nd seat and pass-out seat... Logic would dictate that the higher the requirements for the double in 2nd seat, the lower the requirements for double in pass-out seat and vice-versa... I also wonder if the same principles hold when defending against a strong NT? Assume you would still play penalty doubles against a strong NT, does that mean you would only double with 17/18+? How much would a double be against a strong nt in the pass-out seat?

Steven
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#27 User is offline   FrancesHinden 

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Posted 2011-April-18, 15:10

While you should need fewer points to double in 4th seat, the problem is that stupid partner is on lead, so you can no longer double on the slightly weaker hands with a good lead. Having a balanced hand with honours in every suit is good in one sense, but worse in that you have no obvious source of tricks.
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#28 User is offline   phil_20686 

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Posted 2011-April-18, 15:51

I moved to making balancing doubles on about twleve HCP (if the pips are nice), and I think its a winning strategy at both teams and imps. I also gave up penalty doubles in direct seat to play 5m4M. I really think a part score orientated defence is a winner in direct seat. Its so rare to be able to take a significant penalty, or to make game. This, of course, means that partner never has a bid when he is balanced. The fact that its tough to penalise them after they run cuts in both direction, as it is very hard for them to penalise you aswell if you can scramble.

I seldom worry about finding game in these auctions when you have two balanced hands. Its very rare. Better to be able to find games on distributional hands. They are a lot more common.

Also, one point that no one has made yet is that it is substantially easier to defend when the defensive assets are divided evenly. I would expect on average to beat 1NT by at least one trick mor when the points are 12-12 compared to 16-8. It is just easier to manage the defensive entries.
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#29 User is offline   han 

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Posted 2011-April-19, 01:39

This is so confusing. MrAce was playing weak notrumps before Justin was born (!!!OMG!!!OMG!!!) and says top priority is finding games with 23+ points divided evenly. Phil_20686 is also talking from experience and also doubles lighter in fourth, but doesn't care about these games. I have to think about this.
Please note: I am interested in boring, bog standard, 2/1.

- hrothgar
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#30 User is offline   JLOGIC 

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Posted 2011-April-19, 01:45

hanp will you marry me
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#31 User is offline   hanp 

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Posted 2011-April-19, 01:55

View PostJLOGIC, on 2011-April-19, 01:45, said:

hanp will you marry me


obv!
and the result can be plotted on a graph.
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#32 User is offline   gnasher 

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Posted 2011-April-19, 03:02

Around about the time that Justin was born, I was experimenting with a defence to 1NT called Roche, in which 2 shows 12-14 balanced.

This neatly solves some of the problems mentioned in this thread: you won't miss game with 13 opposite 13, you won't reach game with 13 opposite 9, and you won't undercompete when one of you has a weak notrump and the other has a moderate hand with a bit of shape. Identifying the disadvantages of this method is left as an exercise for the reader.
... that would still not be conclusive proof, before someone wants to explain that to me as well as if I was a 5 year-old. - gwnn
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#33 User is offline   MrAce 

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Posted 2011-April-19, 04:45

View Posthan, on 2011-April-19, 01:39, said:

This is so confusing. MrAce was playing weak notrumps before Justin was born (!!!OMG!!!OMG!!!) and says top priority is finding games with 23+ points divided evenly. Phil_20686 is also talking from experience and also doubles lighter in fourth, but doesn't care about these games. I have to think about this.


I wonder where did you come up with me saying "top priority is finding games 23+ divided evenly"

I mentioned that i was talking about imps. And i never said top priority is to find 23 hcp games. They claimed it is hard to figure when the point range is wide, and i intended to say that even if they missguess their strength, they may still be in good shape due to knowing how to play the hand and defense will be made from one hand.
"Genius has its own limitations, however stupidity has no such boundaries!"
"It's only when a mosquito lands on your testicles that you realize there is always a way to solve problems without using violence!"

"Well to be perfectly honest, in my humble opinion, of course without offending anyone who thinks differently from my point of view, but also by looking into this matter in a different perspective and without being condemning of one's view's and by trying to make it objectified, and by considering each and every one's valid opinion, I honestly believe that I completely forgot what I was going to say."





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#34 User is offline   whereagles 

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Posted 2011-April-19, 08:21

Hi. On my conventions:

1. What range do you expect for the balancing double? Is this hand good enough? What if the colors were reversed?

11+ HCP. Same thing with colors reversed.


2. How much does North need to pass for penalties?

Majority of HCP, i.e. 10+ of them. Normally not much more because he himself didn't dbl 1NT.


3. Should South invite? (Double by either North or South over 2♣ would be takeout).

Yes. 2NT seems fine now.
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#35 User is offline   dake50 

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Posted 2011-April-19, 09:08

1. About 14 not quacky. This is ok.
2. 5-suit (good lead) with an entry.
3. So we find a penalty bonanza that they escape with 2C? INSANE.!!
Bid if you together decide small penalty, sure partial plus/game.
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#36 User is offline   WellSpyder 

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Posted 2011-April-19, 09:13

View PostFrancesHinden, on 2011-April-17, 15:10, said:

JLOGIC has already said most of it. I agree with everything he wrote (ha! I don't always say that!). The word 'unplayable' usually gets rude replies, so let me just say I don't see how you can possibly have a sensible sequence if you double on, say, all 12/13+ HCP hands as you seem to be suggesting. You will either get too high, too often or will miss a lot of games.

To me the real issue with doubling very light in the passout seat is particularly the one about the wide range. I play something which I am sure is horribly unsound theoretically: a passed hand double of a weak 1NT in fourth seat just shows a maximum pass, usually fairly balanced (good 9 - bad 11). This does pick up a surprising number of penalties, although obviously we are a bit more cautious vul at imps and less so love all at matchpoints. So it's not so much the absolute point count you want to double in fourth seat, it's the possible range. With this method I know when to run.

Obviously I could change to playing a double in fourth seat as some other well-defined range, but then I'd be stuck on the stronger hands.

Frances has already said most of it. I agree with everything she wrote (I don't always say that, but I often think it...). However, one issue that doesn't seem to have been mentioned much, is that if you double on, say, all 12/13+ HCP hands you will not only get too high too often or miss a lot of games, but you will also miss some juicy potential penalties!

It is much the same issue as doubling in the passout seat on a very wide range of hands - how will partner now when to leave it in? Suppose they have a modestly unbalanced 6-count (it's less of a problem with very balanced hands since there is no good alternative to leaving in the double anyway). Should they leave in the double and hope the doubler is non-minimum, or take it out to relative safety? Knowing partner has 15+ or the equivalent makes it much easier. So you may miss penalties with 13 opposite 10 if you keep 2nd seat doubles up to strength, but you can gain penalties with 15 opposite 6 because partner won't take it out and let the opponents off the hook.

No-one has yet talked about the strength of penalty doubles over a mini-NT, but the consensus where I play is more or less to keep it up to the same strength as over a weak NT precisely so that partner has a better idea of what to do....
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#37 User is offline   whereagles 

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Posted 2011-April-19, 09:23

View Postlowerline, on 2011-April-18, 03:18, said:

This is an interesting discussion. There are clearly two sides here.

1. It does seem however that neither side really differentiates between 2nd seat and pass-out seat... Logic would dictate that the higher the requirements for the double in 2nd seat, the lower the requirements for double in pass-out seat and vice-versa...

2. I also wonder if the same principles hold when defending against a strong NT? Assume you would still play penalty doubles against a strong NT, does that mean you would only double with 17/18+? How much would a double be against a strong nt in the pass-out seat?


1. There should, in my opinion, be a distinction and the logics you point out seems correct to me. I have defined a dbl of 1NT as 14+ in direct seat or 11+ in the balancing seat. Pard passes accordingly with 7+/10+, give or take a point. It's a two-edged sword, but hey so is the weak NT.

2. No, they do not. The reason is the usual one: our side doesn't normally have game on after opps open 1NT and, even if we do, it will be a shape-based game. So dbl is best used to show some sort of distributional hand, not a strong balanced penalty. With that hand it's best to pass and leave declarer stranded in 1NT, be it in the direct or balancing seat.
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#38 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2011-April-20, 03:18

WellSpyder, one of the theories of defences without a penalty double, such as Lionel, is that 11 opposite 11 occurs much more frequently than 16 opposite 6. Therefore if your double shows 11+ or 12+, etc you actually end up with more penalties than playing a stronger double. The downside is that when you do hold the stronger hand it is difficult to get it across in a constructive auction. One solution to this that used to be popular but has fallen out of favour is to play 3-suited overcalls, which can also be made with balanced hands (4333, 4432, etc). This lets you get into the auction with most decent hands at the expense of being able to show more shapely 2-suited hands.
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#39 User is offline   phil_20686 

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Posted 2011-April-20, 17:57

View Posthan, on 2011-April-19, 01:39, said:

This is so confusing. MrAce was playing weak notrumps before Justin was born (!!!OMG!!!OMG!!!) and says top priority is finding games with 23+ points divided evenly. Phil_20686 is also talking from experience and also doubles lighter in fourth, but doesn't care about these games. I have to think about this.


I definitely did not claim experience based on age. I am too young to know who MC-Hammer is.

I do however have to play against a wk nt nearly every week, whereas I imagine that for most of you guys its a comparative novelty.
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#40 User is offline   han 

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Posted 2011-April-21, 03:57

No, I wouldn't say that weak notrumps are rare here.
Please note: I am interested in boring, bog standard, 2/1.

- hrothgar
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