[jillybean]

I am interested in learning precision. My partner has a book that I will read after he has but while Im waiting for that,
I could be doing some other reading. Can anyone recommend a good, free, online resource to get me started?

Thanks.

[blackshoe]

This looks like a nice site.

I don't know what book you're planning to read, but if it's Berkowitz and Manley's Precision Today (and IMO it should be), here's a summary.

Barry Rigal's Precision in the '90s is another good book. The system(s) described in it are slightly different from the Berkowitz/Manley one, but the great thing about the Rigal book is that he goes into great detail on how to flesh out a system. For example, Berkowitz and Manley say of responses to a 1NT opening (14-16 HCP) "whatever you're using now is fine". Rigal gives you a complete system of responses. In many cases, Rigal discusses why he prefers a particular treatment or convention. B & M mostly don't.

[Echognome]

There are many, many varieties of Precision. I started with Charles Goren Present the Precision System of Contract Bidding. I know it is outdated, but I thought it was a perfect book to start with. Basically, it was a book that took you from natural bidding system to Precision. If you read that with a grain of salt, knowing that there have been many advances since that time, I think it gives you a good foundation. From there, I think any of the other books are good.

I would definitely not focus on the asking bids. I personally think that the other options (natural follow ups or relays) are superior. However, I'm sure others love the asking bids.

Edit: I do not know of any good online resources, but you can probably get the Charles Goren book from a library or buy it used for cheap. It looks like you can get it for a few dollars on Amazon, for example.

[hrothgar]

Hi Kathryn

Precision's strong point is the limited opening bids, in particular the 1♥ and 1♠ openings.

These bids are the bread and butter of the system. I would strongly recommend getting as much practice bidding these basic hands.
Learn when responder should bash to game as opposed to inviting or exploring for slam.
Learn what jump rebids look like in the context of a limited opening system.

After you feel comfortable with this part of the system, branch out and make sure that you're well positioned over 1♦ and 2♣ openings.
(The 2♣ opening is probably the furthest removed from what you're used too and will require the most practice)

[jillybean]

Thanks and yes, I'll be reading Berkowitz/Manley's book.

[mycroft]

Rigal is a good *second* book, for *after* you've been playing Precision for a while and know where the holes are - he'll help you fix them. Even his "simple" Part I is complicated, however. The good news is that he is complete (which B/M is not, in some cases - but you won't notice it for quite some time), and gives explanations as to why he is recommending what he does, or why one would play one alternative instead of another.

But I wouldn't wish it on anyone learning Precision, unless they're used to system-wonk books already (yes, Ed, I'm including the Rosenkranz books in that).
(thinks: time to read mine again, see if there's some good fills for a couple of holes we have. Unthinks.)

I would agree with Hrothgar about the good parts of the system: for all the 1♣ auctions are flashy and interesting, you win with the limited bids - and in particular, with the tricks you can use in safety because partner (or you) is limited. 1♦ is ugly and frequent, but what you lose with the ambiguity you win with the limited strength (and the ambiguity); 2♣ is a fragile, but effective call (especially if you take the suggestion and remove the 4M5♣ hands out of it), but rare (especially if you take the 4M5♣ hands out of it).

And remember, you are learning three systems:

• standard, influenced by the fact that you didn't open 1♣;
  
• 1♣-pass;
  
• 1♣-not pass.

Do *not* neglect the unflashy, ugly, hard, third part. You will use it.

[hrothgar]

I concur that Rigal's book is probably the best Precision treatment available.

With the said and done, I find his treatment of Symmetric Relay completely incomprehensible.
You can safely ignore this entire section of the book.

[jh51]

For an amusing take on Precision, try the recently published book of "lost" Mollo stories "The Hog Takes To Precision".

[1eyedjack]

It may be out of print by now; certainly the techniques described will undoubtedly be a bit dated, but I think that Power Precision by Alan Sontag is worth a read, if only for the anecdotes. System notes are presented in alternate chapters separated by alternate chapters of stories of varying interest. It just keeps the interest going where, especially for a beginner, a book which is nothing but crammed with theory can be a bit dry.

[Echognome]

I personally think a lot of you are way off base with your suggestions for a beginner to Precision. Going from having never played Precision to a fully thought out system is a lot of steps. I personally think the books that are being recommended are too advanced for going from zero to the next step. I am grateful that I started with Goren, because he presents the system for those that have never played it. He explains the rationale behind the bids and you also learn what the original C.C. Wei system was. After all, modern versions are all variants from this original system. As such, I would rather tell a beginner to begin with learning the basic system and only later start learning the more modern treatments. Needless to say, this is just my opinion.

[blackshoe]

 hrothgar, on 2011-April-14, 10:51, said:

I concur that Rigal's book is probably the best Precision treatment available.

With the said and done, I find his treatment of Symmetric Relay completely incomprehensible.
You can safely ignore this entire section of the book.

I usually do.

[blackshoe]

 Echognome, on 2011-April-14, 14:18, said:

I personally think a lot of you are way off base with your suggestions for a beginner to Precision. Going from having never played Precision to a fully thought out system is a lot of steps. I personally think the books that are being recommended are too advanced for going from zero to the next step. I am grateful that I started with Goren, because he presents the system for those that have never played it. He explains the rationale behind the bids and you also learn what the original C.C. Wei system was. After all, modern versions are all variants from this original system. As such, I would rather tell a beginner to begin with learning the basic system and only later start learning the more modern treatments. Needless to say, this is just my opinion.

Modern Precision systems tend to plug a lot of the holes in the original version. 14-16 1NT instead of 13-15. Unusual Positive rather than Impossible Negative. Leaving the 5 clubs/4 of a major hands out of the 2♣ opening. Personally, I think those are all Good Things™.

I mentioned Rigal in the first place because it's often compared to Berkowitz/Manley and because it does go pretty thoroughly into system design methods. On reflection, I agree it's not necessarily a good place to start.

[Echognome]

I definitely agree that there are improvements to the original system. I certainly wouldn't consider a one point change in the opening 1NT range as a "hole", but that is semantics. The entire response structure to 1♣ has also been improved. I am not worried about unusual positive versus impossible negative. I think the whole treatment of semi-positives has been much improved since the initial system.

However, my main point is in answering the question, "Where is the best place to start?"

[dcohio]

My partner and I play the system from Precision Today with a 11-13 1NT opener. This takes alot of hands out of the already overloaded 1D opener.

[mycroft]

Well, Echognome, all I can say is that I've never managed to finish the Goren book (and I finished "his" book on the "Italian system"). I admit I learned from Reese's "Precision Bidding and Precision Play" (which I would massively recommend over Goren's if you're looking for an early Precision start; the only problem with it is it assumes you currently play Acol), and I don't really see B/M as any more complicated than that - yeah, there's sections, in the advanced part, that they tell you are alternatives to the easier setups they present before - ignore them. My partner and I don't (10-12 NT, Transfer positives, 1C-1D; 1H hearts or balanced, ...) but new people can.

That's why I'm warning about Rigal - in my opinion, even his simple stuff is too complicated, and requiring solutions to problems new Precision players don't understand are problems yet.

I think that removing the 4M5♣ hands from 2♣; the addition of (43)15 hands into 2♦, with the "No Wei" responses; and the switch from 13-15 NT to 14-16 (yes, it is a big change - 13-15 implied that you passed balanced 11s and crappy 12s, which was fine in 1970, when everybody that wasn't playing 12-14 NT did; not so good now. Now you have two NT ranges short of 1♣ - 11-13 and 14-16. It also takes the balanced 16s out of 1♣, which is a huge benefit to the system, as those were the hands you had to worry about with minimum positive responses, to the point of having sequences dedicated to getting out in 2NT with "game-forcing" hands.) are big. I believe the impossible negative causes many more problems than learning unusual positives adds in memory, because the auction does go 1♣-p-1♦-1♠ a lot, and opener's actions opposite a known NGF hand are simpler; as are responder's after it goes [something]-2♠ to her (because, with the 1=4=4=4, she'd have already bid 3♣ before they got to show spades).

Simple changes, but very helpful; so much so that it's just not worth learning it the "old" way any more than learning Big Takeout Cuebids would be in Standard.

Not Very Humble opinion, obviously.

[helene_t]

I didnt like Goren's book at all, liked Reese's much better. Kathy Wei's Simplified Precision is a good place to start I think. B&M is not very systematic but at least it's based on a modern style and not too difficult to read.

[Cyberyeti]

I also learned my precision from "Precision bidding and precision play".

I then moved to a variant where we overloaded the 1N bid playing 12-16 (with a complicated system of responses that we had played in acol also), but this allowed us the luxury of a 4 card diamond.

[Echognome]

I'm fine with other choices to Goren. I definitely do not think his book is the do-all or end-all. I just felt a lot of the early recommendations for books were too advanced for someone just starting out.

[1eyedjack]

I would add in further support of Sontag's book: I started to play bridge at university, as did any partners and teammates with whom I played at that time. We got together a team to play in the Hull university congress and all of us decided to play Sontag precision, straight out of the book, none of us having any significant experience of precision and, indeed our total bridge experience being extremely limited given the time frame. We won it by a country mile, although to be fair the system would have played a minor role in that success (at that time of course we ascribed every ounce of that success to the system and seriously contemplated writing to Sontag to say so. Ah, the days of naivety!) But my point is that we had personal experience of learning precision, as beginners, from that book and did not encounter significant hardship in doing so.

[helene_t]

Sonntag's book is great but he has a lot of non-standard ideas. OK, non-standard precision may be a pleonasm but even so. B&M are as mainstream as you can get in the 21st century precision community, I think.