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rebid after partner's sign-off

Poll: rebid after partner's sign-off (23 member(s) have cast votes)

Your call?

  1. Clear Pass (7 votes [30.43%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 30.43%

  2. Pass, but 3NT is reasonable. (2 votes [8.70%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 8.70%

  3. 3NT, but pass is reasonable. (9 votes [39.13%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 39.13%

  4. Clear 3NT (5 votes [21.74%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 21.74%

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#1 User is offline   han 

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Posted 2011-April-13, 02:41

Here is an awm-style poll for you. You hold xxx AJxx Q10x A109. I'm afraid I forgot the vulnerability, the scoring is IMPs.

Partner opens 1C, RHO doubles and you bid 1H. The opponents are silent from now on. Partner rebids 1S, you invite with 2NT and partner bids 3C. Do you pass or bid 3NT?
Please note: I am interested in boring, bog standard, 2/1.

- hrothgar
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#2 User is offline   rhm 

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Posted 2011-April-13, 04:15

Without knowing your requirements for opening the bidding this poll is meaningless.
With minor suit oriented hands I am not an extremist when it comes to open light and it would not occur to me to invite with this hand after the bidding started that way and anyway there are many hands where 3NT will make without partner's hand resembling an opening bid.

However, having invited it would only be logical to pass now. Bidding 3NT is somewhat contradictory.

Rainer Herrmann
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#3 User is offline   whereagles 

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Posted 2011-April-13, 05:25

Pard shd have 6 clubs. I'm re-evaluating my hand due to the fitting club ace and bid game. Should be easy to get a count on RHO anyway.
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#4 User is offline   gnasher 

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Posted 2011-April-13, 06:04

I'd pass. Partner knows about game bonuses too. If partner has something like Axxx x xx KQJxxx, 3NT is probably going down. Add a queen to that and he has a raise to 3NT. Make A into some less useful holding like KQ, and 3NT is hopeless.
... that would still not be conclusive proof, before someone wants to explain that to me as well as if I was a 5 year-old. - gwnn
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#5 User is offline   OleBerg 

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Posted 2011-April-13, 07:53

View Postgnasher, on 2011-April-13, 06:04, said:

I'd pass. Partner knows about game bonuses too. If partner has something like Axxx x xx KQJxxx, 3NT is probably going down. Add a queen to that and he has a raise to 3NT. Make A into some less useful holding like KQ, and 3NT is hopeless.


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#6 User is offline   gszes 

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Posted 2011-April-13, 10:18

yes indeed it is quit possible p has something akin to Axxx xx x KQJTxx
and they rab to 3c

they can also have say AJxx Q J Kxxxxxx
where they would be even more fearful of 3n

Your Axx is a wonderful addition that p cannot count on (they think xx)
even though p is aware of game bonus they have to make % bid with
weak hand and bid 3c. You have to make % bid and bid 3n. When you
bid 2n in first place it was reasonable but you have to be able to
reevaluate how well your hand works with p newly known long club
suit. If you wish to try for a top and pass at MP so be it but at
IMPS it seems totally unjustified.
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#7 User is offline   ArtK78 

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Posted 2011-April-13, 11:11

View Postgszes, on 2011-April-13, 10:18, said:

yes indeed it is quit possible p has something akin to Axxx xx x KQJTxx
and they rab to 3c

they can also have say AJxx Q J Kxxxxxx
where they would be even more fearful of 3n


Wow. Really? I can understand that pard would be fearful of 3NT, but surely 5 must have some play.
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#8 User is offline   JLOGIC 

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Posted 2011-April-13, 12:42

Pass and it is not even close
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#9 User is offline   han 

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Posted 2011-April-13, 13:58

My opponents had this auction (without screens), so sorry rhm but I don't know their opening style. 2NT was alerted as a puppet to 3C (XYZ). The 2NT bidder immediately bid 3NT over 3C. When asked about the alert, she admitted that she forgot about their agreement, and intended 2NT as invitational.

The director asked how she took 3C. She said that of course she realized by then that she had forgotten their agreement, and knew partner was forced to bid 3C. The director asked what 3C would mean if 2NT was invitational. After some thought she said it would show extras with long clubs (!!!).

The director then asked some people and they bid 3NT. The director ruled that 3NT should stand.

I felt bad about this. First of all, I don't believe that 3C would really show extras, her statement was shamelessly self-serving. Second, she didn't for one second consider passing 3C. So it seems clear to me that she was acting very unethically. I don't know who the director polled, and he didn't say how many he polled and whether they were unanimous or not. It doesn't seem right to let her get away with this behavior without any penalty or warning.
Please note: I am interested in boring, bog standard, 2/1.

- hrothgar
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#10 User is offline   MrAce 

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Posted 2011-April-13, 14:11

View Posthan, on 2011-April-13, 13:58, said:

So it seems clear to me that she was acting very unethically. I don't know who the director polled, and he didn't say how many he polled and whether they were unanimous or not. It doesn't seem right to let her get away with this behavior without any penalty or warning.


I agree with you Han. % 100.
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#11 User is offline   gnasher 

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Posted 2011-April-13, 16:57

What did the appeals committee do?
... that would still not be conclusive proof, before someone wants to explain that to me as well as if I was a 5 year-old. - gwnn
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#12 User is offline   paulg 

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Posted 2011-April-14, 01:33

View Postgnasher, on 2011-April-13, 16:57, said:

What did the appeals committee do?

Not a great one to appeal when the director says that people have been polled. There must be a very good chance that the AC will consist of people similar to those polled and your main argument is that "the first set of people polled are wrong".

On the other hand, if gnasher, mrace and I are hanging around ...
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#13 User is offline   han 

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Posted 2011-April-14, 02:10

I don't think that there are appeals committees here.
Please note: I am interested in boring, bog standard, 2/1.

- hrothgar
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#14 User is offline   gnasher 

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Posted 2011-April-14, 02:13

The basis for the appeal would be that they had no agreement that 3 showed extras, it is normal to play 3 as a signoff, and therefore it was a logical alternative to assume that 3 was to play.

Regarding the poll, we don't know how many players were polled, or what they were asked. If the director asked "Partner's 3 shows extras. What would you do?", the poll doesn't mean very much. Also, polls are imperfect, because people's answers are often coloured by their knowledge of the hand.
... that would still not be conclusive proof, before someone wants to explain that to me as well as if I was a 5 year-old. - gwnn
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#15 User is offline   gnasher 

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Posted 2011-April-14, 02:25

View Posthan, on 2011-April-14, 02:10, said:

I don't think that there are appeals committees here.

You're always entitled to an appeal - it's in the Laws. If there's no appeals committee, and there's no alternative arrangement (eg telephoning a referee), appeals are heard by the director in charge. Would that be the same director as the one who gave the ruling?
... that would still not be conclusive proof, before someone wants to explain that to me as well as if I was a 5 year-old. - gwnn
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#16 User is offline   han 

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Posted 2011-April-14, 03:44

I am pretty sure that the director did not tell the polled players that 3C showed extras, that would be ridiculous.

We won the match btw, and I had no desire to ask for an appeal. The director told me that he thought 3NT was more or less automatic. I posted this question out of my own curiousity.
Please note: I am interested in boring, bog standard, 2/1.

- hrothgar
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#17 User is offline   MrAce 

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Posted 2011-April-14, 03:53

View Posthan, on 2011-April-14, 03:44, said:

I am pretty sure that the director did not tell the polled players that 3C showed extras, that would be ridiculous.

We won the match btw, and I had no desire to ask for an appeal. The director told me that he thought 3NT was more or less automatic. I posted this question out of my own curiousity.


I am one of those who lean towards 3 NT, but it is FAR from being automatic.
"Genius has its own limitations, however stupidity has no such boundaries!"
"It's only when a mosquito lands on your testicles that you realize there is always a way to solve problems without using violence!"

"Well to be perfectly honest, in my humble opinion, of course without offending anyone who thinks differently from my point of view, but also by looking into this matter in a different perspective and without being condemning of one's view's and by trying to make it objectified, and by considering each and every one's valid opinion, I honestly believe that I completely forgot what I was going to say."





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