[blover]

Scoring: IMP

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1H-(DBL)-1S-(2C)
3S -(4D) -4S-(5D)
Pa -(Pa) -DBL

I'm North, without much prior discussion, but i believe my partner's pass of 5D is forcing. Although not any defense value, i still choosed dbl, because i don't think we can make 5S. Am i correct?

[helene_t]

If partner's pass is forcing, I can follow you. The 5-level belongs to the oponents, with 10 trumps you should not compete at the 5-level. On the other hand, partner could have doubled 5♦ himself. If he encourages you to bid 5♠, your hand is suited for doing that.

But I don't think it's forcing. The oponents bid very strong, and partner's 3♠ is likely to be meant as barage since he could bid 3♣ with a constructive raise.

[xx1943]

blover, on Sep 13 2004, 03:51 PM, said:

Scoring: IMP

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1H-(DBL)-1S-(2C)
3S -(4D) -4S-(5D)
Pa -(Pa) -DBL

I'm North, without much prior discussion, but i believe my partner's pass of 5D is forcing. Although not any defense value, i still choosed dbl, because i don't think we can make 5S. Am i correct?

Hi

IMPs red agaisnt white u have to bid 5♠ no matter if 5♦ is forcing or not.
partners 3♠
is no barrage in this situation.

cheers

al

[Free]

I would also bid 5♠ or pass rather than Dbl. Imo this isn't a forcing pass, since opps bid really strong, and partner is minimum after his 2♠ bid (and we have 10 ♠s together, so lots of lost points).

But I wonder why you didn't start with 2♠ instead of 1♠? Because of the Dbl, it should be rather weak, and partner can decide completely if he has enough to defend or not...

[Flame]

I wouldnt double, no matter if this is a forcing pass or not, its ok to do this sometimes. i thik 5sp is little better then double at imp (at mp 5sp seems bad)
it think your partner had to double here with his two aces, and weak hand.

[paulg]

So this is clearly a forcing pass situation given the vulnerability and, imo, to play any other way is misguided. Although we can see that, in this case, we have a minimum hand partner cannot and will have passed expecting us to do something sensible.

Although passing a forcing pass has been recommended, it is the worst thing to do in terms of partnership confidence. In the long term it is far better to concede -690 rather than pass a forcing call.

I don't feel that the opponents have not necessarily shown values (especially given the vul) but have shown distribution - remember people bid a lot nowadays against vulnerable opponents.

Having said that, I think that 5♠ is clear at IMPs.

I note that I have disagreed with Free and Flame on both the forcing pass threads in this forum, so if you ever face us as opponents you know to bid to a high level quickly

p

[Fluffy]

You created the problem by yourself bidding 4♠, you don´t expect to make that contract, and you shouldn´t had bid it in my opinion, after your pass partner would be in a better position to pass/doulbe or bid 5♠.

[Free]

I disagree Fluffy, you have 10 trumps together, only 8 losers but need an adjust for extra trumps, so I'd actually bid 4♠ to make...

[luke warm]

partner jumped in spades, i don't think 4s was a terrible bid... doubler is 14(with the ace)44.. spade and diamond winner, maybe a club ruff... i'd have to bid 5s because i'm too chicken to double

[flytoox]

The problem lies in the first bid, 1S. This hand should bid 2S after opp's takeout dbl. 1S shouls be stronger than 2S. After 2S, pd can bid 4S with good fit. There is no forcing pass after your weak jump over opp's takeout.

Hongjun

[paulg]

North may not have many points but does hold an 8-loser hand that is full value following a jump rebid showing support. So I think that 1♠ is a lot better than an original 2♠ bid, and I'm bidding 4♠ to make.

Okay, perhaps I'm not crazy about creating a forcing pass with such poor defence, but I do want to bid game at IMPs at any vulnerability with this hand and the forcing pass is just a small price to pay.

Paul

[flytoox]

cardsharp, on Sep 14 2004, 06:25 PM, said:

North may not have many points but does hold an 8-loser hand that is full value following a jump rebid showing support. So I think that 1♠ is a lot better than an original 2♠ bid, and I'm bidding 4♠ to make.

Okay, perhaps I'm not crazy about creating a forcing pass with such poor defence, but I do want to bid game at IMPs at any vulnerability with this hand and the forcing pass is just a small price to pay.

Paul

Red vs white, 2S is not complete broke hand. The reason 2S is better is that 2S tells pd everything, while starting from 1s, you need to rebid 2s to show it. This may not be possible if Opps bid a lot.

[Flame]

2sp would be very good here imo, this hand isnt too good for the bid.

[inquiry]

Welcome to the bridgebase online forum;s, blover!!

Is this bidding correct? NO

Scoring: IMP

1H-(DBL)-1S-(2C)
3S -(4D) -4S-(5D)
Pa -(Pa) -DBL

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Over 1♥-(DBL), the north hand is not generally suited for much of anything. Here are the options.

1) 1♠ = likelyhood partner has spades reduced by the double, hand not useful for spades other stains.
2) 2♠ = right on strength, but those spade spots, and vul.. the suit quality is the problem, not so much the hcp. And this is imps, do we really want to imply to partner we have a nice suit?
3) Pass = well, if you don't bid now, you maynot get a chance later.

For me, none of these bids are any good. I guess, my preferences at imps, vul versus not is 1♠ > pass > 2♠

Ok, so I stuck my neck way out with 1♠, and partner is right in there with a leap to 3♠. What optons do you play for raises by your partner? Is 3♣ over 2♣ shortness and support so 3♠ denies short club? Is 3♣ a stronger raise than 3♠ and neutral on club legnth (this is what I like)? What about 2NT here, can that be spade support in competition (dbl with real clubs and great hand given your bid?). You need to know the answers to these questions, but here is one for you. You bid overbid at 1♠, I think we can agree. So despite the "law" saying bid on with suspected 10 card fit (your six and the four your partner showed), you have to pass. So the 4♠ bid was wrong. You should pass over 4♦.

So this brings us back to your parrtner's 3♠ bid. If he has a "good raise" to 3♠ here somehow that doesn't involve a jump to 3♠ (say 3♣ or 2nt), then 3♠ is shakey, but probably ok. IF not, 3♠ is a huge overbid, and he should bid just 2♠. After your partners spade raise, your side really should be out of the bidding.

IF you had chose 2♠. your partner might try an immediate 4♠, but now no forcing pass is in effect. And yes, once you bid 4♠, vul, forcing pass is in effect.

[jtfanclub]

blover, on Sep 13 2004, 08:51 AM, said:

Scoring: IMP

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1H-(DBL)-1S-(2C)
3S -(4D) -4S-(5D)
Pa -(Pa) -DBL

I'm North, without much prior discussion, but i believe my partner's pass of 5D is forcing. Although not any defense value, i still choosed dbl, because i don't think we can make 5S. Am i correct?

I'm an Intermediate here...

I have zero tricks on defense. Wait, I have a 6th spade which is a NEGATIVE trick on defense, because it prevents a 2-2 split and increases the odds of an x-0 split in the suit, wiping out my partner's points.

I don't care if it's a forcing pass or not- you can't get me to double five diamonds with a stick. I'd bid 5 spades with most partners, pass with a few others, but I wouldn't consider the pass to be forcing with any of them.

To me, forcing pass in this situtation means don't pass *if you have what you've promised*. Partner expects one defensive trick from you for the 1S bid. You have negative one. Don't double.

[paulhar]

inquiry, on Sep 14 2004, 03:35 PM, said:

You bid overbid at 1♠, I think we can agree. So despite the "law" saying bid on with suspected 10 card fit (your six and the four your partner showed), you have to pass. So the 4♠ bid was wrong. You should pass over 4♦.

Whether you think 1S was an overbid or not, this hand has improved remarkably for offense when partner bids 3S. Now partner is showing a 6-loser hand and you have a 7-loser hand before adjustments and 8 after - admittedly the queen of clubs isn't pulling its full weight on this auction, but the jack of hearts which wasn't counted in the loser count at all might be a huge card.

On the hand given, 4S has reasonable play. Picking up the trump suit brings home the bacon, or failing that, the HQ onside will do as well.

I presume that 5D made else the hand wouldn't have been posted (5D has a shot to be set with these two defensive hands), but South could easily have had more high cards.

[blover]

Exactly. 5D made, 4S can be made only if you can guess West's stiff ♠K, otherwise 5♠ will be down 2 because of bad ♥ honor position.