[raist]

ok this is a really simple question but recently I've found my conception of these 2 bids shaken, so I really need an idiot check right now

can someone please confirm definitively the strength of these 2 bids?

for the avoidance of doubt, the bidding sequences are:
(1c) -dbl-(pass)-1h
(pass)-1N

(1c) -dbl-(pass)-1h
(pass)-2N

[helene_t]

The first one shows a hand just too strong for a direct 1NT bid. If a direct 1NT bid is 15-18 then this would be 19-21.

The second one is even stronger, 22-23.

Obviously if 18 HCPs is too much for a direct 1NT bid in your partnership then the ranges are 18-20 and 21-22, maybe 21-23.

[Quantumcat]

Helene summed that up pretty well.

This makes it really obvious why you need to have an actual takeout double shape to make a takeout double. It is perfectly acceptable to pass with strong hands because you don't have a suit and don't have a takeout double! Always, always consider your rebid under a few possibilities of your partner's response before making a bid!

I saw a very, very funny auction at my local club the other night - (1C) X (P) 4S (P) 5C (P) 6S all pass. The doubler had a 13-count with five clubs and one spade. The 4♠ bidder had six spades and about a 15 count, rich in aces, but with a doubleton club. She was very pleased to hear about her partner's "control" in clubs and good hand. The doubler was trying to rescue his partner from 4♠.

Lesson: if you make a takeout double without a takeout double shape, you can bet your bottom dollar your partner is going to bid game in your singleton. This is why you need to have 18+ HCP to double without a takeout double shape - if your partner bids game in your singleton, you'd better have enough strength for slam since you will be starting to find the right fit at the four or five level!